Not feminist enough if you're heterosexual.

[TheRealPosieParker]

This is something I've found repeatedly lately. Frankly I'm fucked off with it. In last few weeks I've been called a breeder, that I have shitty kids, that I spewed my kids from my arse, that I'm a handmaiden.

FFS. I may as well just abandon feminism as actually men so treat me better, on a personal level, than many feminists.

What sort of feminism decides that heterosexual women are deserving of this vitriol? That mothers are all a bunch of handmaidens? That wearing make up is more anti feminist than telling a mother her kids are shitty?

Every time it happens I am genuinely shocked.

But we do put energy into men. And in a great many cases that isn't reciprocated. Not sure why that is a ridiculous notion?

Perhaps you should look for more radical feminist mothering spaces (am trying to remember a couple of blogs/people on twitter..)?

You might find this interesting...

I started watching it the other day but forgot about it until I saw this thread. It's interesting to see the history.

I do agree with the concept of 'getting men out of the head and out of the room' to discuss women's issues/feminism . Given the history of men silencing women I think it is important to have women only spaces. Too often at feminist conferences I have heard male voices taking waaay more than their 'share' of time based on the male/female split in the room.

But we do put energy into men. And in a great many cases that isn't reciprocated. Not sure why that is a ridiculous notion?

Yes. I understand where the lesbian separatists are coming from. If a heterosexual friend complains to them about her husband and they put emotional labour into making her happy again, and then she goes right back to her husband and does emotional labour for him, and he doesn't reciprocate, and then she goes to her lesbian friend again ... I can understand why the lesbian would feel she is wasting her energy.

Someone will probably say "not all straight women!" and sure, that's nice and all, but if a lesbian is old enough to have gone through this a number of times and is fed up with it, I totally understand it.

I think this is absolutely outrageous. "The personal is political" all right, but it remains personal. People are entitled to their lives, as they choose to live them, and it's a sad thing if feminism comes to one bunch of women criticising another bunch for doing entirely normal things. If I meet a female pimp, I'll tell her that she's wrong and should stop, but that's about the only time I'd say such a thing.

On the other hand, one might acknowledge that a relationship with a man is likely to give a feminist woman some challenges; we hear about them all the time here!

I thought lesbian separatists had their heyday back in the 1970s. Are they on the ascendant again? It's tough to think that they're fighting it out with the insistent transexuals. There might not be much space in between.

Ah, is this nonsense back? I remember it from first time round. OP, I'm sorry you've had this experience - IME any political movement has more than its share of arses hanging around, and feminism is no different.

I remember Julie Bindel from the 80s and she was quite fun to party with. These days, we'd have little in common as I am a breeder (albeit a lesbian one). But I have a very thick skin these days, thanks in part to the bruising encounters of 80s identity politics.

OP, find some new feminist friends. There's absolutely no reason why you should put up with crappy behaviour.

Yes. I understand where the lesbian separatists are coming from. If a heterosexual friend complains to them about her husband and they put emotional labour into making her happy again, and then she goes right back to her husband and does emotional labour for him, and he doesn't reciprocate, and then she goes to her lesbian friend again ... I can understand why the lesbian would feel she is wasting her energy.

To be fair, I have been here a number of times and am straight. And yes, I do feel I am wasting my energy sometimes but actually, you know, that's life/friendship, to some extent. Some of the friends who I put emotional labour into making happy again are not straight. And it is fucking annoying watching people fuck themselves up again but like, oh, giving up smoking or something; you can't make people be happy. Or leave crappy partners. Or stop being self-destructive. All you can do is behave in the best way you can, and yes, sometimes you have to say 'I have done this too many times so stop sabotaging yourself'. IME that is unrelated to sexuality. I like looking after people, I suppose, which is why I often end up doing it.

"for doing entirely normal things"
A rather telling phrase! Is not being straight or being single not normal. Why is being in a heterosexual nuclear family or couple seen as being SO normal ( and not to be questioned?)..................

But if you can't even cope with posing the question...........

As regards lesbian dogs, actually not so mad. I remember an article in New Scientist about someone admitting it was hard to do research on lesbian sheep since females indicate sexual receptivity by standing still. But you'd never find it unless someone suggested you look for it. Gay penguins anyone?

Political lesbianism isn't the same as lesbian separatism BTW.......

I would say that being in a relationship with a man isn't a particularly radical feminist act.
If you are straight then it comes down to either have a relationship with a man or have no relationship. As sex and companionship is a fundamental human need then it seems harsh to imply that radical feminist women are somehow betraying their feminist principles by having relationships with men.
It's the flip side of saying to a gay fundamental muslim that they should choose relationships with the opposite sex. It's possible but not ok and not fair on either party in that relationship.
Similarly I do find it out that lesbians could be perceived as better feminists purely by dint of their sexuality. Sure, they might have a more objective view of men and the nature of relationships with men. But that doesn't make them somehow superior women.

Well, technically, if the human species dies out, there can be no patriarchy. If one only wants to smash patriarchy, but not build a feminist utopia, it is a way to achieve the goal.
There might be some people who want to save non-human species and would be in favour of this method.

Vestal isn't that rather like turkeys voting for Christmas?

Genuine question: What is political lesbianism?

I have to say I've never come across this before. I'm a straight woman with kids and I talk to a lot of radical feminists but not one has ever expressed anything like this to me. Maybe they're just saying it behind my back!

One of the many reasons I hate the feminist movement

Sorry but the idea that only lesbians would get frustrated to see a heterosexual friend return to her husband / partner is crap.

Lesbians can and do return to poor relationships, so do gay men. And straight women can also get frustrated when this happens. Men get frustrated when they see it too.

Let's be honest - some radical feminists behaviour towards men would be rightly called out as misogyny if it was done by a man towards a women. And bullying straight women because they have made life choices you do not agree with is not justifiable in any context.

Bullying anyone for making life choices you don't agree with is unacceptable

Felascloak I absolutely agree. Much better way of saying it. consider the post above edited!

SomeDyke caught me out with this:
"for doing entirely normal things"
A rather telling phrase! Is not being straight or being single not normal. Why is being in a heterosexual nuclear family or couple seen as being SO normal ( and not to be questioned?)..................
But if you can't even cope with posing the question...........

That was bad phrasing and I knew it at the time, but I CBA to stare out of the window and wait for the right words to come. I meant that a large majority of people do form heterosexual relationships (or wish they could) and people who have other urges have no right to criticise them for it. It was unjust when the majority criticised the minority, but turning the tables isn't the way to make a point about how it was wrong. I think Felascloak said it better than I did.

Now our society has a more benign view of same-sex relationships, we're ready to admit that our bodies drive us to do certain things, not all the same, but for most of us that means a push towards finding a heterosexual partner. Political lesbians, if they ever felt that push, have overcome it. They're welcome to say that it works for them as individuals, and they can say that relationships with men are bad for women in general, though they should expect some argument about it. But I still think nobody has a right to tell any individual that they've made wrong choices about their private relationships. That's making the political too personal.

Now I've probably put the other foot in too. Oh well.

Me too Magic The third wave lot anyway. It's little to do with equality rather, female supremacy.

I hope all of you who "hate the feminist movement" and are worried about "female supremacy" (I wish...) don't vote, don't own anything in your own name, don't sign contracts or hire equipment, don't expect bodily autonomy, turn down equal pay, trun down promotions, etc, etc.

female supremacy
A hahahahaha hahahahaha
Of course, stupid feminists getting ideas above their station and planning world domination

From what I understand, Political lesbianism is straight (and one would assume bi) women making the conscious decision to be a lesbian. Now, I don't know how that works in practise - whether they would actually enter into sexual relationships with normal lesbians (which feels a bit wrong and cruel to me really) or if they just say they're lesbians to make a point and actually live asexually instead. I've never met one to ask (and they might very well tell me to fuck off even if I did)

I have no idea if a political lesbian would be welcome among lesbian separatists - if I were a lesbian, I would certainly view them with a certain amount of suspicion I think

I've not personally heard any of this from radical feminists but I do hear lots of negativity about having children from more liberal feminists - it tends to be from an environmental standpoint, but from people who aren't very eco conscious in the rest of their lives.

I wouldnt refer to anyone's relationships as a lifestyle choice - so I think referring to the very real need people feel about becoming parents as that is missing the point a bit.

I'm skeptical about people who supposedly respect women but not motherhood. I often hear the 'breeder' comments from younger people (I'm early 30s) and it all seems a bit naive to me. Obviously some young women are forced into marriage and children at a young age but the people I'm hearing this stuff from aren't reacting against a pressure to have children.

Personally becoming a mother opened up a greater understanding of feminism and a connection to the struggles women face. There are lots of things about pregnancy, birth and motherhood that isn't talked about in the public sphere and even between mothers it's almost like discussing a secret you're not meant to. Comments about breeders are just ignorant in the face of this.

I never felt more oppressed or felt the full weight of the patriarchy than when I became a mother. I had them late, had built my career up. When I returned from maternity leave my trainee had become my manager and I was bullied out. The prejudices I faced as a mother at work, and the trivialities I was supposed to care about in mother and baby groups... It was a harsh experience.

I suspect some young funfems are going to realise they need some real feminism when they reach this stage of their lives.

As for men and our relationships with them, my DH was my main ally. It was him that gave me the confidence (plus endless support) to get my tiny business off the ground.

Yy to the way mothers are viewed and a the renewed feminism following birth.