Not feminist enough if you're heterosexual.

[TheRealPosieParker]

This is something I've found repeatedly lately. Frankly I'm fucked off with it. In last few weeks I've been called a breeder, that I have shitty kids, that I spewed my kids from my arse, that I'm a handmaiden.

FFS. I may as well just abandon feminism as actually men so treat me better, on a personal level, than many feminists.

What sort of feminism decides that heterosexual women are deserving of this vitriol? That mothers are all a bunch of handmaidens? That wearing make up is more anti feminist than telling a mother her kids are shitty?

Every time it happens I am genuinely shocked.

[TheRealPosieParker]

I have to say I know lots of lovely lovely educated women, most of them still say their husbands babysit!

[itsbetterthanabox]

Are you talking about people online? That's not the same as irl.
I assure you if you ventured into other spaces online you'd experience much worse abuse from men than from occasional women questioning if some choices are feminist.
People are dicks online, we know this.

[BertrandRussell]

And the chorus of "oh, isn't he good!!!!!!^ when a man shows even the most basic of domestic skills does seem to bear out the point!

[TheRealPosieParker]

I wasn't comparing men with some rad fems who say these things. I'm fully aware of how men behave online and as such have left most groups (politics, intellectual discussion ahem against trades description, religion)

[TheRealPosieParker]

YY Bertrand,

Or recently "you know what they're like when they don't have enough sex"

No one ever talks about a mother being fucking "hands on".

[DioneTheDiabolist]

The majority of my friends and all my family (with the exception of Dbro) are in equal relationships wrt children and housework.

OP, Bert and others in a relationship with a male, do you do more than your DPs when it comes to the home and DCs? Do you feel that you put more into your relationships than your DPs do?

[BertrandRussell]

"he majority of my friends and all my family (with the exception of Dbro) are in equal relationships wrt children and housework"

Good. But it appears not to be a majority position on Mumsnet.

[VestalVirgin]

Has anyone noticed how similar the title of this thread is to that other one?

"I am not enough of a feminist because I am heterosexual like men."

I know, I know, she doesn't mean "I like men" that way (though she obviously does like men that way, too), but the similarity ... I am not sure what to make of that.

Conservatives and nasty feminists actually agree on something?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

What's the position in your house Bert?

[BertrandRussell]

Why do you want to know?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I would like to know a bit about such things in Radfem households. I wasn't just asking you.

[BertrandRussell]

Really?
"What's the position in your house Bert?"
sounds a bit like asking me!

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Read the previous times I asked. Firstly I asked everyone. No answer. Then I asked you and the OP as you two were still here. You responded, but didn't answer the question. So I asked you by name.

[Felascloak]

I answered thanks very much dione. Maybe I don't count as one of the feminists on here though

[BertrandRussell]

I'm not a "specimen"!

You say you lie in an equal relationship- so you know what one looks like. Many women on here do not. Some are aware that they don't but aren't sure what is wrong or how to change it.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Sorry Felas, I did read your response. Something came up and I was in a bit of a hurry to ensure Bert, that I was not just picking her out when I name checked her. I'm sure you're a fine feminist.

I'm not redfem, nor are most Mnetters (or the friends of Mnetters as discussed upthread), so I just wanted to know what goes on for the radfems here.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Oops, radfem, not redfem.

[VestalVirgin]

I just read this rather interesting text on heterosexual sexuality, and thought it might fit here.

Here's a quote, the part of the article I found most interesting. (Writer is referring to how for the first time in her life she was in a relationship with someone who didn't want sex very often).

"I won’t go into detail, but suffice to say I did not always behave well in response to being given the cold shoulder. And as someone who has been on the other end of the situation, I had a lot of conflict to deal with. But when, after… well… a couple of years… I came to realise that I did not NEED sex (just like I have been saying that men do not NEED sex), and I had no right to try to manipulate a person into having sex with me, which was essentially what I was doing, I was finally able to be critical of what I had previously assumed. I had completely absorbed the idea that my value was linked to whether or not men saw me as a sexual object. The accepted ‘norm’ within a heterosexual relationship is that the man ‘requires’ sex and he desires it from his partner, who is thus made desirable and useful. She has something of value, something he wants, and he seeks to obtain it from her. Women are ruthlessly programmed to want to be desirable and useful, to feel valuable when men want to have sex with us. It makes us feel ‘good enough’."

Link: alvahlyall.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/women-who-really-love-sex/

[EightNoineTen]

I am a sahm so of course I do most of the childcare, that's my job! Other than that I think our relationship is equal. Not that I think me being a sahm makes it unequal but I know some will see it that way. I'm under no illusion that our relationship is the norm, however. Women put up with a lot of shit.

[VestalVirgin]

I am a sahm so of course I do most of the childcare, that's my job!

Is it your job, though? That is, are you formally employed with all the documents and will be entitled to a pension? Does your work experience count as work experience with future potential employers?

The main problem I have with the stay at home mother model is that most women do not have any of the safety that comes with a regular job, and while they are financially well off if everything is okay with the marriage, their financial security depends on said marriage and if the marriage ends in divorce, they have officially no job experience and "never worked" because the paperwork is not there.

[EightNoineTen]

Well of course I don't Vestal. Sahm are not supported or valued in that way which I see as a societal issue. Someone has to look after the children though and right now in my house I want that person to be me.

[VestalVirgin]

Well of course I don't Vestal. Sahm are not supported or valued in that way which I see as a societal issue.

Your husband could formally employ you as housekeeper/cook/nanny, if the law in the UK is not wildly different from Germany. Of course that would mean you'd have to pay income tax, but it is the easiest way to stay safe.
(Doing this would also help many women whose husbands do not treat them as their equals -. a document stating work hours, and payment, would show clearly how much work is done, and how much it would cost on the free market.)

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Your husband could formally employ you as housekeeper/cook/nanny, if the law in the UK is not wildly different from Germany. Of course that would mean you'd have to pay income tax, but it is the easiest way to stay safe

You could but you would be paying tax on income that has already been taxed.

I think what you are proposing could back fire horribly. At present under a divorce settlement a non working parent can claim her or his efforts went in to advancing the career of other (an argument I'm not wholly persuaded of) and certainly has the right to share in a pension pot. If the stay at home has been paid, then surely they have been paid- what further claim should they have?

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Well of course I don't Vestal. Sahm are not supported or valued in that way which I see as a societal issue

So what are you looking for? Seriously what is society meant to do for you?

Are you looking for wages for housework ? To be paid out of general taxation of parents who have no option other than to work?

[EightNoineTen]

No I'm not looking for anything lass.