New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

crappymummy JAPAB intent isn't magical, and does not erase the harm that gendered slurs cause

Who has said otherwise?

'Oh, I know it has a different, more common and more offensive meaning, but I mean it in a different way!'

not good enough.

Well argue that with the people who use these words.

merrymouse That is a pretty rubbish definition if you are a doctor trying to treat a patient.

So is Liberal or Christian or anything else not immediately medically relevant. Definitions and concepts do not have to revolve around what is useful to a doctor. Whether one possesses certain parts might be, and so this can be ascertained of course.

A working definition might be "someone who feels that characteristics typically associated with an XX-chromosomed body are natural, normal, or right for them". With man having something equivalent.

Back to make up, pretty dresses heels and being the more gentle and delicate sex

"A working definition might be "someone who feels that characteristics typically associated with an XX-chromosomed body are natural, normal, or right for them". With man having something equivalent."

Yes. And a working definition might not be that, because that isn't a working definition.

Within that unworking definition, there are already lots of questions: what are the characteristics typically associated with an XX chromosomed body? What is an XX chromosomed body? Why are the characteristics (yet to be defined) typically associated with an XX-chromosomed body rather than an XY chromosomed body? Are these characteristics universal, across time and culture? If not, does that mean that xx bodied people who had different characteristics than the one we are currently claiming belong to XX bodied people, were not in fact women, but some other form of human?

D'you see how crap that definition is? D'you see how it doesn't work?

Now, what do you really think a woman is?

good old dictionaries- unquestionable authorities on words, except of course, when they aren't.

One dictionary was cited as having a cautionary note about problems with that usage. What "authority" has said that man no longer has the mankind meaning?

Well this is like what I was saying - a lot of men don't understand the issue because there aren't really a significant set of experiences that seriously impact day to day life that are exclusive to men. There are lots of these for women (eg periods, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, menopause). If you are a man you are the default, normal sex in our society and lots of people use man and mankind to refer to all people so what does it matter to men if a few women want to call themselves men? But for women we are "other" because of our biology and how can we talk about this if biological men are included as women? I suppose men don't need the label "men" like women need the label "women."

lol JAPAB

"Some people say XXXXX and its offensive, but I would never use XXXXX offensively because XXXXX could be offensive and I wouldn't want to do that by saying XXXXX'

the jig is up, your slip is showing, you are obvious and we see you

AskBasil Within that unworking definition, there are already lots of questions: what are the characteristics typically associated with an XX chromosomed body?

Vagina, breasts, for instance. I'm sure you have heard a transperson talk about being trapped in the wrong body. If a transman does not feel it normal or right or natural for themselves to have a vagina, then we share that in common.

So is Liberal or Christian or anything else not immediately medically relevant. Definitions and concepts do not have to revolve around what is useful to a doctor. Whether one possesses certain parts might be, and so this can be ascertained of course.

I think they really do have to revolve around what is relevant to a doctor when they are a very clear definition of a biological state.

Unless you are suggesting that the status of being a woman is similar to choosing a religion or a political party?

And again, if you are saying that choosing to be a woman is a bit like choosing whether to vote for Jeremy or Dave, please, please, please could you explain what you think a woman is, because I for one have no idea.

What characteristics are those?

quite a few transwomen talk about having girldicks, and do not modify their bodies or take hormones

so much for 'born in the wrong body'

crappymummy "Some people say XXXXX and its offensive, but I would never use XXXXX offensively because XXXXX could be offensive and I wouldn't want to do that by saying XXXXX'

What is wrong with that? I wouldn't use man with the mankind meaning preferring the less controversial humankind instead, but I know that usage exists and so it is the case that as yet "man" does not exclusively refer to XY-people.

No idea what jig this gives up.

I'm sure you have heard a transperson talk about being trapped in the wrong body. If a transman does not feel it normal or right or natural for themselves to have a vagina, then we share that in common.

You might share that feeling, but it still would not mean that the transman was a man. The belief that a state of being is wrong does not logically lead to the conclusion that a different state of being exists.

replace XXXXX with any racist/homophobic/transphobic slur you fancy, and see how acceptable the statement is then

this insistence on using offensive terms, and misgendering for the explicit purpose of trying to create a hostile environment is gross

you are so transparent, you might be a window. It's cute that you think you are being subtle and clever, like

"Vagina, breasts, for instance. I'm sure you have heard a transperson talk about being trapped in the wrong body. If a transman does not feel it normal or right or natural for themselves to have a vagina, then we share that in common."

Like when anorectics think they are hideously fat and have to slim down more to get thinner and get rid of those bits of fat that are non-existent?

Or when people like this one feel that they are disabled and insist on doctors giving them operations to make them disabled?

So does that mean that any woman who doesn't like her vagina and breasts and thighs and hates the fact that she has them, is actually a man?

Unless you are suggesting that the status of being a woman is similar to choosing a religion or a political party?

I think that is exactly what some trans activists are saying.

crappymummy this insistence on using offensive terms, and misgendering for the explicit purpose of trying to create a hostile environment is gross

Can you really, really, not understand the difference between using a term or meaning and referring to it?

Can you really, really, not understand the difference between someone talking about how the word "man" has not been an exclusive term to refer to XY-people, as in some contexts it has an 'all humans' meaning', before going on to talk about their own attitudes, as a man, to such non-exclusive labels, and someone saying something like 'the ability to evaluate morality distinguishes man from other animals'?

I mean, really?

Plus repeating a falsehood over and over will not perform an alchemy-like conversion of them into becoming the truth. I have not misgendered anyone. Even if you (inaccurately) insist that someone using the "all humans" meaning of man is misgendering, I still never used the term with that meaning.

you are so transparent, you might be a window. It's cute that you think you are being subtle and clever, like

One of us is being rather transparent. These threads, including this one, are rife with misgendering. You have taken no-one else to task even when they actually have misgendered. Nope, it only suddenly became an issue when you got it into your head that I had misgendered.

So of course you are being entirely genuine in your valiant crusade against the evils of misgendering. Clearly motivated by such a strong dislike of it that you ignore real examples of it and pursue me for a non-existent transgression. Anyone would think you had just taken a dislike to me personally and my supposed misgendering is just a pretext to have a go :)

AskBasil, Like when anorectics think they are hideously fat and have to slim down more to get thinner and get rid of those bits of fat that are non-existent?

Anorexics believe false physical facts about themselves. So not really "like" what we are talking about with transpeople.

Or when people like this one feel that they are disabled and insist on doctors giving them operations to make them disabled?

If they feel like they are physically disabled when they are not, then they believe false physical facts. If they just prefer to be disabled and so have an impairment done, well, still don't see it as directly comparable.

So does that mean that any woman who doesn't like her vagina and breasts and thighs and hates the fact that she has them, is actually a man?

Depends. If she is just unhappy with her own instance of these body parts, as opposed to feeling that the very type of part itself is somehow wrong or non natural, then not the same sort of thing.

You have been asked to stop referring to a term, as it is offensive. Can you really, really, not see that sentence repeated in my posts? Can you really, really, think your right to use a word trumps the damage it causes?

You insist on continuing to do so, with the mealy mouthed excuse that as you are referring to it, you aren't really using it- a handy get-out clause that allows you to keep doing it. Yup, transparent.

I sincerely apologise if I haven't addressed everyone else's failings first before daring to comment on yours- how many people should be challenged before your misogyny is picked up on? Just for clarity, like.

I haven't taken a dislike to you, but as always, am bemused by just how much some people (men, I suppose you would say) dislike and feel contempt for women. After all this time, it still gives me pause

"Anorexics believe false physical facts about themselves."

And males who believe they are female don't?

People who believe they are the opposite sex on the inside to the one they are on the outside believe false physical facts about themselves, because it is not possible to be a male human who is actually female inside, or vice versa

Anorexics believe false physical facts about themselves. So not really "like" what we are talking about with transpeople

Mmm it's exactly like a man who believes he is a woman he is not and never can be

What is a "false physical fact", anyway?

Has the word "fact" been redefined, too?

A working definition might be "someone who feels that characteristics typically associated with an XX-chromosomed body are natural, normal, or right for them".

Would you willing to consider an amendment to

"someone who addresses their feeling that characteristics typically associated with an XX-chromosomed body are natural, normal, or right for them by suppressing their typical XY-characteristics"

You know, so doesn't seek PIV sex with other women, for instance?

Cote... its like dysphoria is legitimate in some cases, but a symptom of mental illness in others.

So, anorectics, who are mostly women believe "false facts"

but

Trans people, who are mostly biologically male are being totally rational and factual.

Silly women and their silly false facts.

LOL that's exactly it isn't it.

When women believe things about their bodies which are patently untrue (like my 6 stone body is grotesquely obese and I need to not eat anything), that's them being wrong.

And when men men believe things about their bodies which are patently not true (like penis is female, my ladystick is a female organ) that's true because men are the arbiters of truth.

If women challenge the latter view, based on science and centuries of understanding, we are bigots, trolls and on the wrong side of history.

Because men decide what a fact is. For centuries men have told us that women are people who have wombs, breasts and vaginas. Now they've changed their minds and are saying that women are people who say they are women, irrespective of what reproductive organs or socialisation process they have undergone.

Facts change according to men's feelz.

Got that?