New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

You nailed it Palmer & AskBasil.

And it's for men to inform us of the truth once again

Thank goodness for men and their facts, keeping us feeble minded ladies in our place.

Agree spot on

Women (ones who have never had a penis obviously) Know Your Limits

It's laughable because of the ridiculous arguments but I have to laugh at it at times as I feel so angry that my being a women is being defined by men

Oh look, a list of men who have abused the right to enter women's loos

"it's for men to inform us of the truth once again"

Yes, and not just about any old subject but about womanhood.

Men like Tiggy, Slow, and JAPAB are here to help us women understand what it means to be a woman. Because they clearly know. And we don't.

Hallelujah

It makes us so powerless doesn't it? Years and years of fighting for equal rights as women and suddenly we can't use the word women any more. So we don't have a word to label 'xy humans who are raised as female'. With no label, we can't protect our rights. Now anywhere that used to be for 'xy humans raised as female' is now open to anyone who utters the magic words- or soon will be.

And, the cynical half of me thinks that that is part of the point MrsK.

If women can't fight for the things that women need, such as reproductive rights because the definition of woman has to include men then as women, if we continue the fight, we're bigots.

No double standards there at all...

It's why so many men are so vociferous in their support of trans-issues.

It's not because they are nice, liberal people who feel a visceral indignation when they see someone being treated unfairly.

It's because at a gut level, they know that the re-definition of a woman, to anything a man wants it to be, is in men's interests and incredibly detrimental to women.

It's why they come on to sites like this, to tell us we're bigots on the wrong side of history. It's a wonderful new weapon they have, with which to attack women while keeping tight hold of their lefty progressive credentials.

#WeSeeYou

Especially the so-called "manosphere"

Except they still can't explain where the group of women that are trans women and the group of people that are women intersect.

Exactly basil and mrsK

"Women's" issues cease to exist because some men get pregnant too, and some "women" (men) are highly paid and don't need mat leave and work in STEM subjects, and FGM disappears because it's transphobic to call it female and all the things we whiny bitches have been going on about just disappear. In the name of progress and liberalism and being on the right side of history.

Well you can fuck off #womencansee

#onthewrongsideoflogic

It's because at a gut level, they know that the re-definition of a woman, to anything a man wants it to be, is in men's interests and incredibly detrimental to women

And that redefinition of being a woman does seem to be all about what women wear and how they behave, which nicely excludes any woman whose face doesn't fit.

I think that from an unpromising start, through a frustratingly circular middle, this thread is actually reaching quite a satisfying and useful end

Not seen slow for a while though, I wonder if the banhammer has been in action?

"And that redefinition of being a woman does seem to be all about what women wear and how they behave, which nicely excludes any woman whose face doesn't fit."

Yes. Hence the new impertinence of saying that butch lesbian women, aren't actually women, they're straight transmen.

Lesbian women have always been accused of not being "real women" by misogynists, because they don't conform to patriarchally defined sexuality. Now, you don't even have to self-define as a misogynist to use that trope - you can say butch lesbians are not real women and use your "visceral dislike of injustice" to cloak your visceral misogyny.

I think it may have been, selkie

Lesbian women have always been accused of not being "real women" by misogynists, because they don't conform to patriarchally defined sexuality. Now, you don't even have to self-define as a misogynist to use that trope - you can say butch lesbians are not real women and use your "visceral dislike of injustice" to cloak your visceral misogyny.

And further, you can use your 'cotton ceiling' beliefs in order to justify your need to correctively rape lesbians.

CoteDAzur What is a "false physical fact", anyway?

Has the word "fact" been redefined, too?

No. False physical fact means believing a fact about your physical body or its physical properties, that is false. Like someone who believes their body to be fat when they are dangerously underweight. Transpeople do not do this therefore not a like for like comparison.

AskBasil
When women believe things about their bodies which are patently untrue (like my 6 stone body is grotesquely obese and I need to not eat anything), that's them being wrong.

And when men men believe things about their bodies which are patently not true (like penis is female, my ladystick is a female organ) that's true because men are the arbiters of truth.

Sorry, which men "believe things about their bodies which are patently not true"?

Plus I know it does not suit the conspiracy theory but even if anorexia was a like for like comparison, there are bio-males with it vwho are considered ill, and transmen who are supported and taken seriously.

JAPAB, you still aren't explaining why a trans woman would be correct in their belief that they are a woman.

I am also not clear about which part of a person is their non-physical body.

Lesbian women have always been accused of not being "real women" by misogynists, because they don't conform to patriarchally defined sexuality.

Never heard of this.

It's because at a gut level, they know that the re-definition of a woman, to anything a man wants it to be

Who does ? This is getting a bit bonkers. I think that as much, it promotes your own agenda (to remind everyone of how shit it is to be a woman, and how much we all need feminism) to find a few nut cases and claim they are actions are just more evidence of the deep hatred of women by so many men. This is why this particular battle ground seems so important to you, whereas to most people transgenderism or transexual or whatever you want to call it is very much a side issue.

which men "believe things about their bodies which are patently not true"?

All the people who believe that their brain has a sex which is different to their body sex.
All the people who believe that their genitals are of the opposite sex to the one they are because sex is determined by gender

JAPAB I have been anorexic and I can tell you that I did not believe false physical facts about the properties of my body. I could see how painfully thin I was and I knew exactly how much I weighed and what my BMI was because I weighed myself several times a day. It was more like I had redefined the word fat to include painfully thin and underweight.
So isn't that kind of thinking similar to a man who knows he has a penis but has redefined the word woman to include people with penises?

If you have testicles, a penis, and XY chromosomes, then you are a man, and believing that you are female, is false. You can wear whatever you like, and live in a traditionally "feminine" way if you choose, (the fuzzy logic of "living as a women " is meaningless as women live in all sorts of different ways). You could even have surgery to alter your body to approximate a somewhat more female appearance , but you can never become a woman, if you are a man.
There is someone on Twitter at the mo, insisting that they are a women because they are "oestrogen dominant" !!??? So on that basis I assume that post-menopausal women, or those who have lost their ovaries surgically , and can't take HRT are no longer women because their oestrogen levels will have plummeted. This is the absolute nonsense being peddled by trans.