New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

It's not biology and it's not life experience. So what is it that we are supposed to share with transwomen, which makes them women? Makeup and skirts? Don't make me laugh.

that more often than not women don't wear trousers.

Wear trousers, not don't wear trousers!

I'm not too chuffed about the "men can't be women because being a women is so much shittier than being a man, and men haven't experienced this shittiness, therefore they don't get to have the woman badge" line of argument which generally gets trotted out as per above.

PrettyBrightFireflies
if you would not disqualify them from womanhood due to their lack of these experiences then you cannot legitimately use the lack of these* experiences to reject transwomen such as Nina's womanhood. Which was what the poster was originally doing.

Of course you can.

You say that but then do not explain why. Instead you go on to give an explanation for why there is the lack of the important experience in question, that the lack of was originally being used against a transwoman.

You can of course create a different argument that says "I reject so-and-so's womanhood because they do not possess various body parts and never did", but that is of course different than the specific one I was addressing.

EnthusiasmDisturbed It's quite simple they are women just as much as I am because they were born female. I shall dismiss Nina's womanhood because Nina was born male and you can not change your sex.

Fair enough.

I think you've skipped a stage in the explanation, itsall.

What people are saying is that when trans women say they are women because like them, some women can't have babies or don't have periods they are identifying with women who have a medical problem and that seems an odd way to validate your identity.

CoteDAzur Do you understand now that you are talking nonsense with your "But some women have had hysterectomies so transwomen are women too"?

I never argued that. I questioned another's reasoning by pointing out that a lack of a specific set of feelings and experiences that had been used to reject a transwoman's womanness, are also ones that some bio-women have never and will never experience.

Now if you wish to identify other experiences that all bio-women have or might experience, but trans-women never will, and include that as part of the package of what you argue is vital to womanhood, that;s up to you of course. And good to see you stepping away from saying that the biology is the be all and end all :)

JAPB

Ok, I see what you are saying.

So, if we discount genetics from the definition of a woman, what are we left with?

What is womanhood?

What do I share in common with transwomen?

I'll be honest - I don't know. Being human? Ok, so we've already got a word for that - and it includes men as well.

So what commonalities are there between women and transwomen that are exclusive to just women and transwomen?

I'm not too chuffed about the "men can't be women because being a women is so much shittier than being a man, and men haven't experienced this shittiness, therefore they don't get to have the woman badge" line of argument which generally gets trotted out as per above

That argument might be annoying, (and I'm must have missed it on this thread), but having a shit life still can't make a man into a woman.

(Unless we really are redefining the word 'woman', in which case we are still going to need a word for biological women which won't include trans women, given that the two groups don't necessarily have anything in common, so why not just stick with 'woman'?)

" "I reject so-and-so's womanhood because..."

(1) They don't have a womanhood we can reject or accept.

and

(2) Womanhood isn't something subjective that can be rejected. It is objective reality. I can no more reject the womanhood of a woman than reject the fishhood of a fish.

I can, however, reject the delusion that a male can think himself female.

Some birds can't fly.

I can buy a hang glider and wear feathers every day. I should be able to wear feathers and hang glide without fear of abuse or discrimination.

However, I will never be a bird.

JAPAB - Don't let anyone stop you from answering the actual content of my post re biology and life experience of womanhood, neither of which we share with transwomen ( = males who "feel like" women).

slugs I'm not the one who seems to be claiming that womanhood is something that is earned after a number of grim experiences, unique to women, are ticked off. I also do not think that being a woman is a badge and was actually posting in disagreement with such a position. Do not let that get in the way of your determination to be offended though, please.

FYI the reason we never have to define "man" is because men are not bothered about women claiming that they are men, that is the difference. It goes to show that in general there isn't anything that men would lose if women were just allowed to call themselves men if they felt like it.

" I'm not the one who seems to be claiming that womanhood is something that is earned after a number of grim experiences"

Who has said that?

There is biology and there is socialisation - i.e. how different sexes are raised, treated, conditioned. These two make up the realities of being women and being men. The point which you seem to have missed is that transwomen share neither the biology nor the socialisation with us.

So HOW exactly are they supposed to be women? I would like someone to at least attempt an answer.

I never argued that. I questioned another's reasoning by pointing out that a lack of a specific set of feelings and experiences that had been used to reject a transwoman's womanness, are also ones that some bio-women have never and will never experience.

I think the key bit you're missing here is that whilst some women will not experience it, zero men ever will.

ie. the little circle of who has the 'period' experience overlaps almost entirely with the 'woman' circle, and doesn't overlap at all with the 'man' circle.

And again, the women who will never have a period have a medical issue, it is not the standard woman experience.

There's no point in trying to explain it because I think deep down the men that are arguing with us do know what we mean. And if not, why don't they go and ask heterosexual men why they aren't all desperate to date trans women? If they really do think of them as women then surely they are the ideal women to date because they wouldn't have to worry about accidentally getting them pregnant or all the other things that biological women do that inconvenience men.

I mean I get the feeling that some people like arguing with women just because we are women. They wouldn't bother spending so much time arguing with men.

To address the question about golf clubs, there are very few exclusive all male golf clubs of the type you allude to around, and they don't let any old man join either, they often have some sort of opaque "black ball" type system where an application to join can be vetoed without reason.

There are a number of prominent FTM transgender people, i have no idea whether their existence results in this level of navel gazing from men and complaints that men are being erased, but i doubt it. But the difference is that men do not fear women in the first place, and this is what all of this is about, fear of men.

Also, the educational experience of girls is different from trans who, initially at least are socialised as males. Girls are given less attention in the classroom by teachers Girls are, essentially, trained to be submissive, quiet and future housewives (Kelly 1987), Taylor (1989) Culley (1986). The classroom is, essentially, a man's world despite being mostly controlled by women. Anyone who was socialised as male has had a completely different educational experience than those of us with two X chromosomes, whether or not they have a uterus, periods or can bear children.

I've never met a trans who has had to worry about their period starting when in the middle of an exam. 3 hour exams, now there's something invented by a man.

On so many levels and in so many ways, trans simply cannot truly experience life as a woman because the process of becoming a woman starts with being born with 2 X chromosomes and continues on a divergent path from males at that very point.

One of the problems I suspect is in the media, in literature and in public life, the male experience is viewed as universal. Women are actively prevented from telling their stories so men simply react with shock and disbelief when it's pointed out to them just how far from universal their experience is for women. After the shock and disbelief comes the denial...then the silencing ad infinitum.

No it is not just about the fear of men that is part of it

I just at times feel more comfortable around women, I am not having to deal with annoyances of sexual remarks, glances at boobs, taking freely about issues that men and transwomen don't have to deal with, not having men demand attention because a man has arrived and gives his opinion

At times it is to do with safety but sometimes it's to do with my privacy too it's actually about ME am I allowed to say that being a woman

Why do you think that is? That so many women fear men?

Personal experience i suppose. What is the purpose of your question, do you mean to suggest that I think they are wrong ?