New anti-trans legislation in North Carolina

[SlowFJH]

Of course it's been driven by the religious right wing. But it does aim to achieve what many posters here appear to advocate - namely that biological males can only use men's toilets and changing rooms etc. Biological females must only use women's toilets and changing rooms. Will it gain wider support?

JAPAB. What do you think of my amended definition? Is it ok to limit use of the word woman to those people who seek to suppress characteristics typically associated with XY chromosomes?

Or, is it possible to be both a man, and a woman, at the same time - because you feel comfortable with the characteristics typically associated with both XX and XY chromosomes?

Wouldn't it be easier to refer to those people who feel both as something else - rather than offend them by not accurately describing their feelings ?

"Sorry, which men "believe things about their bodies which are patently not true?"
The ones who say that their penis and and beards are female, because they are female so therefore so are their bollocks.

"Plus I know it does not suit the conspiracy theory but even if anorexia was a like for like comparison, there are bio-males with it vwho are considered ill, and transmen who are supported and taken seriously."

It is perfectly clear that the majority of people who suffer from anorexia, are female. And that the majority of people who declare that they are the opposite sex to what their biological one, are male.

When an overwhelming majority of people who do something are from the same group, that thing gets treated according to the value of the majority group. HTH.

"Lesbian women have always been accused of not being "real women" by misogynists, because they don't conform to patriarchally defined sexuality.

Never heard of this."

Then you need to get out more. Anyone who has ever engaged with anyone about lesbianism, has heard this slur.

"I think that as much, it promotes your own agenda (to remind everyone of how shit it is to be a woman, and how much we all need feminism) to find a few nut cases and claim they are actions are just more evidence of the deep hatred of women by so many men. This is why this particular battle ground seems so important to you, whereas to most people transgenderism or transexual or whatever you want to call it is very much a side issue."

Oh FGS. Transgenderism is a matter of supreme unimportance to me. I have no interest whatsoever in men who think they are women. The reason I engage with this topic, is because like anyone who is even remotely on the edges of feminist discourse, we have been forced into concerning ourselves with this topic, by the men who insist that we engage with them, accept them as women, accept them in our spaces. I tried to avoid the subject of transgenderism for bloody ages, because like you, I considered it a total side issue and not relevant to most women. But I wasn't fucking allowed to, these men have split our movement and are intent on controlling and therefore neutralising it.

The reason most lefty men don't bother to do the reading about it, is because it's women's stuff - not important, not worthy of attention. A spat between a bunch of women they don't want to fuck and men who don't conform to patriarchal masculinity. So they don't need to concern themselves with it.

There is someone on Twitter at the mo, insisting that they are a women because they are "oestrogen dominant"

Typical bloody man. Always having to be dominant

Slug

transgenderism or transexual or whatever you want to call it

Gosh, itllallbefine, you really know your stuff, don't you?

It's very important to me when being a woman is redefined (by men no less ) and in doing so spaces that are for girls/woman are no longer just for girls and women they are for men too

Some spaces that are separated by sex are very much needed

What's your point Rhonda ? I know enough that gender itself is a controversial belief to some, ergo you cannot even be such a thing as "transgender". However i note that Eddie Izzard described himself as such the other night, maybe you all missed that.

AskBasil your sexism just flows out of you without thought. Now "most" lefty men don't think women are worth anything either ? ffs. And - interesting that you think that your "movement" has been split, by men. Not the women who agree with them....

I'm oestrogen dominant too. It's shit, it causes cervical erosion, general misery and freaky periods. But now I can take comfort in the fact that it makes me a WHOLE lotta woman!

cooper I was thinking the same thing. Mind you, I've had days when I'm a bit of a loose cannon on Twitter - maybe I can blame that on the oestrogen, too!

LOL.
Yes Leftyboy has quite a long track record of being just as ready to throw women under the bus as Toryboy Itllbefine.

I concede your angels on pins point (to some extent) that the movement has been split by women agreeing with these men. But actually, these men are in our movement too. Pretending to be women within it. Telling women that they are women. And scolding women for being on the wrong side of history and transphobic, if they are lesbian and don't want to sleep with them. So er, they're not just on the outside looking in, they're active participants claiming a special place and telling real women that we're not as womanly as them.

itll

You've never heard lesbians referred to as not real women? Never heard of corrective rape? What a privileged life you've had.

I'm sure basil can provide you with a long list of men with proud left wing credentials who are pushing the "TW are women" agenda to the detriment of women. Owen Jones and the equality spokesman for the Green Party are two.

Not just in trans issues.

Lefty men have always pushed women under the bus. Trades unions for years opposed equal wages for women because they thought it was more important to fight for a decent family wage for men. Look at lefty boys like Tommy Sheridan and George Galloway, who are out and out rampant misogynists. Look at the Assange debacle, look at the SWP rape allegations.

Itllall, do you really think left wing men are nicer to women than right wing ones are? Dream on. At least you know where you are with a retro type like that 'Tory MP whose name escapes me but who looks like Walter the Softy.

One of the treatments for prostrate cancer is to raise oestrogen to keep testosterone down. Those who do this find it most depressing and distressing Weren't gay men given high doses of oestrogen to 'cure' them? Also distressing.

Jacob Rees Mogg, that's who I'm thinking of

(I've always had a sneaking fondness for him, which was reinforced when Mhairi Black said that he's been a great help to her in learning the ropes since becoming an MP. There must be something good about him if she gets on with him. )

However i note that Eddie Izzard described himself as such the other night, maybe you all missed that.

Gender constructs exist. It is possible to behave in a way that does not meet with cultural expectations without believing that you have actually changed sex.

I think it's great when men challenge gender expectations. I don't think it's great when anyone asserts that a social construct like wearing a dress or crying is a fixed way of behaving that must be attached to either sex.

Eddie Izzard has not said much about his beliefs about transgenderism so I don't know whether I agree or disagree with his opinions.

Japab. A false physical fact would be female brain, and female penis.

I fancy Jacob Rees Mogg, and am not ashamed to say it.

Eddie Izzard has never claimed to be a woman though.

Today, we have MtT saying they are a woman because they're oestrogen dominant, and that, because hormones determine gametes, they are real actual women. Quite where this leaves real, real actual women, I'm not sure.

And then another MtT calling women "non-males"

Both high profile in the trans community.

non-males

WTAF?

Hermione

You've never heard lesbians referred to as not real women? Never heard of corrective rape?"

The question is not whether i have heard of it, it is whether corrective rape is something you feel is seen as anything other than an outrage by 99.9% of people in this country. I have heard many outrageous opinions in my time, the difference is that i don't believe them to be representative of most peoples views. I'm surprised that you think reading shit on the internet equates to having had a harsh life....

I don't recall saying that i thought men's political persuasion had anything to do with whether they were misogynist or not. I dunno why you think mhari black is all that, but worth noting her hero is a lefty man (strangely of a party she is now actively engaged in trying to discredit, go figure)

Yes Rhonda.

If only there was a word that might describe what non-males might be, eh?

From the equalities officer of a political party no less.

The question is not whether i have heard of it

It really is when that's what you've stated btw. Regardless of your stock in trade snidey little back pedal.