These women have no idea what feminism is really about, do they?

[Cerseirys]

I'm not sure why the Indy felt the need to go down this route for IWD. Some of these women sound like MRAs

www.independent.co.uk/voices/international-women-s-day-2016-we-spoke-to-the-women-who-won-t-be-celebrating-a6917506.html

No Helmet, you, by virtue of being a feminist, lay claim to acting on my behalf, you may attempt to obscure things here by saying it;s not about individuals, but I am a woman. When you hear that women do not want you to act on their behalf, or do not agree with the opinions you state under the banner of a movement which claims to help women, you're reaction is to shrug your shoulders and act like a teenager, all the while still choosing to label your beliefs as being "in women's best interests".

No itall, I checked the handbook and it says nothing about having to pretend to be interested while some goady twat pontificates on rape culture.

If I had meant "Blindly support other women" I would have said so. Honest.

Itall, I did reply to your question.

I may get flamed for attempting to point this out, but this isn't a feminist thing. It's a broad liberal/left thing, which feminism had been closely aligned with for quite awhile. It boils down to dissenting views bieng marginalised by attacking the person voicing the idea rather than the idea itself. So people who are pro woman, minority, gay or whatever get tarred with accusations of mysogyny, racism, homophobia etc if you don't follow the majority line.

Broadly speaking we are all terrified of bieng ostracised with those labels, so in a lot of contexts it shuts people up. However it's come full circle with a lot of feminists being accused of transphobia for instance (unjustly imho for what it's worth), as this strategy is applied to them.

I've noticed following the cologne attacks that a lot of self identified feminists have tied themselves up in knots to avoid bieng labelled as islamaphobic, which is natural considering the recent pasting feminism has received in the media over trans issues.

In short our collective method of public discourse has been too much about virtue signalling and not really being prepared to engage with what the other side has to say, as people of varying degrees of intellect armed with this or that piece of advocacy research brandished as "evidence", and writing off anything the other side has to say as the baddies.

I am not a feminist, because to be perfectly frank I don't understand it. Yet I would agree unreservedly with Bertrand's first three points, and would humbly like to add equal access to to education (although to be honest education needs to be improved across the board for both girls and boys, and especially in low income areas). To engage with her last point what qualifies as damage and support as stated is too subjective as it stands.

However there are lot of other ideological positions that march under the banner of feminism from time to time that I can empathise with someone at first glance feeling alienated from the movement as a whole because of. Retreating back to a dictionary definition of what feminism is doesn't necessarily reflect everything that feminism does currently, or historically. Deigning to question an aspect does not make one a mysogynist, it may just mean your curious.

Dullards being continuously contrarian for the sake of it don't come under the handbook definition of people feminists have to give fucks for their opinions.

Especially when they transparently do it to goad or steer conversation to focus on them.

You think 'support other women' means 'vote for female candidates even if you don't agree with their policies'? Are you really that obtuse?

Actually, I was positioning two conflicting positions. Supporting women longer term may be achieved by getting more women into positions of power - especially in a democracy like the UK where there is little policy difference between the major parties.

So read the whole post, and then shove your 'obtuse' label where the sun don't shine.

Actually, this is one aspect of Fwr/feminism that I find a bit heady-scratchy. There seems to be a need to insult or belittle anyone who doesn't appear immediately to tow the party line.

Yeah? Here's another one for you.

It's 'toe' the party line, as in walk the same line as everyone else. 'Tow' is to pull behind.

So now you can stick that where the sun don't shine alone with your trying to yank the chains of the feminists here.

So you would rather become pedantic over grammar than discuss the issue? I'll go back to reading the thread and let you carry on telling other women how to think. Good luck.

I haven't told any other women how to think, thanks.

And really, there isn't any discussing the issue with you. You were pretending not to understand a perfectly clear sentence.

Do I think that you, as a man, genuinely want to discuss feminism? My experience doesn't point in that direction, sorry.

"
Actually, this is one aspect of Fwr/feminism that I find a bit heady-scratchy. There seems to be a need to insult or belittle anyone who doesn't appear immediately to tow the party line."

It's not that you're not toeing the party line, whatever that it. It's that you appear to be deliberately misunderstanding a perfectly clear sentence. And you obviously haven't spent much time on here if you think the majority of the insults and belittling comes from the feminist "side"..

And no, I don't tell other women how to think either.

I've noticed following the cologne attacks that a lot of self identified feminists have tied themselves up in knots to avoid bieng labelled as islamaphobic

There is an appalling example in the Cologne thread where a poster within the first or second page got in a comment about it being yet another thread about brown men bad, white women good.

And isn't the general concensus on MN is that it's just plain nasty to score points over minor grammatical errors (most of us make them at some point and autocorrelation does not help).

Yes, that is the general concensus.

It's also not on to trot over to the Feminism board and play 'wind up the feminists' yet an awful lot of that goes on.

Not sure why this board is fair game for having a pop at the posters but it seems to be ok for people to come over here for no other reason than to argue with feminists and accuse them of all manner of things, most of which are bullshit.

Bertrand, I think those first three points are fundamental to being a decent, compassionate and logical human being. They go far wider than just feminism. I agree with all of them and yet I am not a feminist.
Grim are you a man? Then,according to the majority opinion on here when it is discussed, you can't be a feminist even if you wanted to be.

And because I don't wear a (sweat shop made)"this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt, my opinion doesn't count either. That was a metaphor by the way before someone replies to it to say she does not wear one either.

So far as "what does women harm" - there are plenty of woman who call themselves feminists , occasionally even on FWR, who would vehemently disagree with my stance that prostitution and pornography is harmful.

"So far as "what does women harm" - there are plenty of woman who call themselves feminists , occasionally even on FWR, who would vehemently disagree with my stance that prostitution and pornography is harmful." And I have said repeatedly that I don't think such people can call themselves feminists.

And here you see why some people don't consider themselves feminists - number four of the list requires you to abide by restrictive, primitive value structures so that you don't 'undermine' other women. It's just a continuation of the Edwardian quasi-religious cultural values (even to the point of maintaining the 'saintly' women and 'beastly' keen tropes). If you don't surrender utterly to these anti-sex, anti-choice values you're attacking other women. It's like Germaine Greer referring to prostitutes as 'blacklegs' undercutting other women in the 'sexual market' (an idea beloved of the more bitterly the MRA communities). It's a disgusting imposition of moral tyranny cloaked in the language of liberation.

Just so that everyone is clear, it was me who posted that the present depressing consensus on MN is brown men bad, white women good on a guest post about pregnant women who have committed no crime being held in detention centres. I posted it on the first page after several posts which were frankly disgustingly racist.

I was proved completely correct in my analysis by the majority of posters on the thread and almost all threads about immigration that have appeared on MN recently.

Not quite sure what anti racist posts have to do with feminism. Unless it was to have an anonymous dig.

And I have said repeatedly that I don't think such people can call themselves feminists

I know you have. Sorry what I meant was I suppose I don't think you need to justify an objection to them on feminist principles. I do not hold my views based on being a feminist; my husband doesn't either. That is the point Grim was making.

See what Mephistopheles has said. My view is prostitution is dehumanising and ultimately degrades and brutalises all concerned.

Well, I am prepared to try and see what Mephistopheles is saying , but I don't understand him. It sounds a bit as if he's worried about feminism getting between him and porn and prostitutes. But I assume that's not why he's so cross. Could you try again, Mephisophles? In simpler language?

Ok Bertrand, if we zero in on prostition I think you do some of those people a disservice. I have seen tonnes of people come on here just spoiling for a fight, but I have seen some people who genuinely believe that allowing women to work together and not calling it a brothel stands to make women safer. Not because that they don't believe it's harmful, but because they are acutely aware that it is and this helps.

I personally don't know where I stand on prostitution philosophically, but in practice I lean more in your direction as those German super brothels sound like hell on earth from what I've read about them.

However I don't think it's impossible for a compassionate individual to have concerns over the welfare of current sex workers for fear of what happens to them. I've seen loads of debates circle around this precise issue, and different people are choosing what they see as the lesser of two evils, only disagreeing as to what precisely that is.

I haven't actually made my mind up about men calling themselves feminists, by the way. My ds does, very definitely. I think I prefer "feminist ally". But that could be because I have had some bad experiences with men calling themselves feminists, so I may not be very objective on this one.

Not quite sure what anti racist posts have to do with feminism. Unless it was to have an anonymous dig

It was an example of what Japab was referring to. It was the appalling comment , thrown in at)
which stuck in my mind. I didn't check back to see who made it

Are you saying that there was no racism on the Cologne threads? Or are you saying that feminists shouldn't challenge racism?