These women have no idea what feminism is really about, do they?

[Cerseirys]

I'm not sure why the Indy felt the need to go down this route for IWD. Some of these women sound like MRAs

www.independent.co.uk/voices/international-women-s-day-2016-we-spoke-to-the-women-who-won-t-be-celebrating-a6917506.html

Well I for one am sick of the way that feminists claim to speak on behalf of women, funny how if you argue with someone on this forum, you will be accused of "telling women they are wrong", or "anti women".

I don't claim to speak for all women.

I speak for me.

Most of "telling women they are wrong" comes from anti/non feminists.

Unless you mean "disagreeing"? Which is a bit different. Or saying "Have you thought about it like this?" Which is also different.

In the feminist chat room one expects to "chat" feminism with feminists

So declared feminists are the only women entitled to express an opinion on issues that affect women?

The upshot of that is a kind of endless influx of people telling women that they're wrong

"Telling women they are wrong"- certainly a couple of posters here who have no aversion to telling women they are wrong.

For what it's worth,(and Posey and Palmer I'll save you time. I know the answer is "nothing") I actually think mostof what those women were saying was nonsense ; particularly the one going on about divorce.

Falls in to the category of "any sane and reasonable person would think she was wrong"

I only commented on this thread at all because of the posts attacking itllall - particularly the post claiming she was imagining things.

Quite Lilac, no one speaks for all women. Or claims to.

Most of "telling women they are wrong" comes from anti/non feminists

Uhm, this is a thread about how it is an outrage that on International Womens Day, an article about women who disagree with feminism is considered bad form. Feminism, as a political movement, is concerned with the rights and treatment of women, if it seems, which it does, that many women who call themselves feminists, don't give a sh!t that other women don't share their idea of what measures a society that is more favourable to women should like, then what message does that give ? It seems hard to claim that feminists are championing women, at the same time as telling other women who don't agree with them, that they just don't understand it.

Basically, if I, as a woman, disagree with you, a woman and a feminist, about what is best for women, how can feminism legitimately claim to represent "women's interests" without asterisking the word "women" ?

Yawn.

Ok rape statistics are made up, women shouldn't initiate divorce and we shouldn't take about women's issues but rather humanism.

Satisfied?

Well since you put it like that, I henceforth agree to have my interests as a woman represented by Feminism. Do I have to also agree that we live in a Rape Culture ?

Think what you like re rape culture. Why should I give a shit?

Its boring that you seem to dislike "feminism chat" but find yourself here so often but hey...you're not alone.

Look, itlall- do you agree that

1. Women should have complete autonomy over their own bodies- specifically when it comes to sex and reproduction.
2. women should have full equality in the Law.
3. Women should have equal opportunities in the workplace and equal pay for equal work.
4. Women should support other women and not do things that are damaging to other women either individually or collectively.

Bertrand, I think those first three points are fundamental to being a decent, compassionate and logical human being. They go far wider than just feminism. I agree with all of them and yet I am not a feminist.

I think the fourth point is more contentious, and it's where a fair few people struggle with feminist ideals.

"I agree with all of them and yet I am not a feminist."

Can you say why not?

Well, the biggest issue is probably me being a man. Many feminists don't want men involved, and I can see the sense in that. I have no desire to crash your party.

Then there is point 4. It sounds a bit like 'support women regardless of their actions and consequences.' That maybe isn't exactly what you meant, so perhaps you could expand a little.

Lass

In the feminist chat room one expects to "chat" feminism with feminists

So declared feminists are the only women entitled to express an opinion on issues that affect women?

You are being silly, I'm sure you can't really miss the point all of the time.
No self declared feminists would be the most likely people found discussing things in the feminist chat room.....

Grimarse Then there is point 4. It sounds a bit like 'support women regardless of their actions and consequences.' That maybe isn't exactly what you meant, so perhaps you could expand a little.

I think you've misread what was written.

Quite possibly, which is why I asked if she could expand a little, rather than me jumping to assumptions. But I do think there is something about this that rings true within feminist discussions that I have read here on Fwr.

Why should I give a shit?

Because I'm a woman, and you care about me, right ?

"Then there is point 4. It sounds a bit like 'support women regardless of their actions and consequences.' That maybe isn't exactly what you meant, so perhaps you could expand a little."

No. If I had meant that I would have said it.

Bertrand, points 1 - 3 of course I agree with whole heartedly. Point 4 - could you not just replace women with "people" ? Should we be prioritising women when we are considering the consequences of our actions, more than men ? Is it unfeminist to do so ?

Throughout this thread you seem to think there is a designated head or voice of feminism and, bizarrely, you seem to think it's me.

Very flattering and all but nah...

Yeah, you could replace it with people. But that would be assuming that we have achieved equality, and society treats women covertly and overtly as equal to men. I don't think that. It is also assuming that men are fully on board with the equality agenda. I don't think that either.

Just as long as women aren't equal to men, I'll be a feminist.

I thought Seneca's box ticking upthread was spot-on.

4) Women should support other women and not do things that are damaging to other women either individually or collectively.

So let's say there are male and female candidates standing for election. Do you vote for a woman, or vote for the candidate who represents your views?

It's pretty obvious which is the correct answer, but how do you square this with your original statement? Voting a woman in might be a longer term solution to the gender imbalance in the UK Parliament, even if you don't agree with her policies.

You think 'support other women' means 'vote for female candidates even if you don't agree with their policies'? Are you really that obtuse?

I read it to include things like supporting women such as the victim of Ched Evans (Convicted Rapist) who has been hounded and abused for daring to see through the trial and conviction of the footballer who raped her while she was unable to consent. Supporting the recent 15 year old victim of Adam Johnson (Convicted Child Abuser) who has been victimised and called all sorts of names, again for daring to see through the trial and conviction of the footballer who groomed and sexually assaulted her.

I wasn't old enough to vote when Thatcher got in but would I have voted for her because she was female? Not a chance.