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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 13:15

Who has the power or desire to interfere with their partners private solitary sex life?

Porn is a big no in this house though. If I found my husband watching porn I would be very very angry, it would be a disaster for him.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 13:24

Posie
So its OK for him to have a sly wank. Good.

But it's not OK for him to use mental/visual stimuli (given that on that occasion physical stimuli from another person was nor agreed to)?

Why

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 13:25

That's the perimeters within which our relationship is a happy one, quite simple really.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 13:31

But it's not OK for him to use mental/visual stimuli (given that on that occasion physical stimuli from another person was nor agreed to)?"

Because the porn industry exploits women.

HowBadIsThisPlease · 10/02/2016 13:32

Ok first of all the stuff in my first post was half hypothetical. In particular, as I said later, I am not personally fending off sexual advances all the time, as none are made, so its a different situation.

However, "one thing I can do to put my foot down" was being imagined being thought by some hypothetical woman, and in my head had nothing to do with punishment. Just one thing it is legitimate to say no to. That's all.

The housework stuff - most women are completely in denial about how much they do relative to their husbands. But subconsciously they know it's not fair and it puts them off sex. And then they come to a woman-dominated forum like this, and although it's unstated, it's understood that many women feel the same way. And if you don't, I'm sure it looks like a miserable hegemony of sex-loathing. But it's not, it's just a sharing of a certain common exhausted unconsciously resentful point of view.

I don't loathe sex or despise women who like it. I rather envy women in warm loving equal respectful relationships who leap into bed joyfully with their husbands, or even tiredly get into it (nothing wrong with that imo). In fact I rather admire them because if their lives are like that they must have made better choices than I have, been more assertive and had better self esteem at certain crucial moments. So from me at least, no shade on the "other side"

DeoGratias · 10/02/2016 13:41

I think are probably all in agreement on the thread really. None of this is controversial. Most married couples expect to hvae sex from one another unless there is some catastrophe or a new baby. If one doesn't then the other has to live with it, discuss it or leave but they have no right to force it. Like most elements of a marriage every day we give and take on things and sex is often willingly so treated by a couple.

Finally I am sure we all agree that women can say no as much as they like and that's it.

The differences between us seem to be that some of us think it's fine if we're not quite in the mood for sex (or to put out the bins or finish bill paying or do some errand for the other half ) we still might do it to please the other person and that that is a gender neutral issue - doind what we don't like for the person we love is a core part of many marriages both for men and women.

HandsomeGroomGiveHerRoom · 10/02/2016 13:51

HowBadIsThisPlease my one regret about leaving my loveless, resentment-filled relationship is that I didn't do so sooner. I stayed for various reasons, not least of which my son. It reached a point where the environment was so unpleasant, that it couldn't possibly have been healthy for ds. I needed to get out.

It hasn't been easy, I know I'm judged by some (but have had the kindest support from some surprising quarters) and I feel terrible guilt at times, but good Lord it was the right thing to do.

Life really is too short - for all parties involved. Flowers

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 13:51

I don't equate sex with a necessary household chore like putting out the bins. For me, having sex I don't particularly want would bd far harder psychologically and physically than rolling a bin down the drive.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 13:57

Posie
If I saw my husband watching porn I'd be very, very angry. in that case, I'm sure he never ever has. Hmm

Bertrand
Because the porn industry is exploitative . Within our life times, we will have hyper -realistic porn which is entirely CGI. Would it be Okay if it were just a collection of high resolution pixels on a screen (not involving any living being)?

SomeDyke · 10/02/2016 14:02

"If you find yourself in a relationship with someone you love who generally wants to have sex a bit more often that you do, you can either try and reach a compromise by agreeing to have sex more often"

Why not go for only having sex when BOTH of you really want it, 'cos otherwise it's just using the other person as some sort of masturbation aid. If both of you aren't up for it, then better use the more usual and non-sentient masturbation aids available to adults, rather than your partners not totally willing body.

I really, REALLY don't get in the least someone who is WILLING to have sex with someone who doesn't really want to and you know it! No isn't yes, 'I don't really want to' isn't yes either, and nor is 'I don't really want to but I will if you insist'! 'I wish I could but I'm too tired and I'd rather go to sleep' isn't yes either -- and you could at least have the good grace to let them sleep and try and wank quietly!

Some of you may think this is cloud-cuckoo land, but if so it's the sunnier and happier cloud-cuckoo land of lesbianism, and I'm more than a little glad I live there.

Really, you straight gals think it is okay to put up with this? You poor buggers, that's all I can say......................

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 14:08

I'm with you on that one Dyke. If one partner agrees to have more sex than they want, that's not a compromise, that's one partner allowing the other to use their body. Why the other partner would want that is the real question - I would never ever want sex with someone who was just doing if to keep me happy.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 14:11

"Within our life times, we will have hyper -realistic porn which is entirely CGI. Would it be Okay if it were just a collection of high resolution pixels on a screen (not involving any living being)?"

Well,yes, although it would depend on the type of images of course. I would put good money on it not being a commercial success though!

SomeDyke · 10/02/2016 14:13

"doing what we don't like for the person we love is a core part of many marriages"

Again, you poor buggers! Works when it comes to taking out the bins, or cleaning the cat-litter box, but when it comes to sex, I would never expect her to do anything she didn't like, however keen I was. NEVER. That is kind of the point for me, that both of us are fully into whatever is going on. The very idea of someone doing something they don't really like, even as some sort of display of how much they supposedly love me, is totally and utterly abhorrent.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 14:14

So every man must watch porn?

Sigh

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 14:17

Agree Dyke.

I cannot imagine getting my rocks off with a partner who was having sex solely because I wanted it. I like to think my husband is fully on board and thinks I'm bloody amazing.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 14:19

What's with the sneering Slow?

Do you think all men have to watch porn and if they say they aren't they're lying?

I'm glad my relationship doesn't have those sorts of trust issues.

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 14:24

Somedyke- How do you know exactly what your partner is thinking and their reason for having sex?

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 14:26

Mode - do you find it hard to tell if your partner is enjoying sex?

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 14:26

That should say Mide

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 14:29

No not at all but I know from my own experience that there's been times I haven't felt like sex but have done it anyway because my partner wanted it. I enjoyed it and was willing but before had I would have preferred to have a nice nap.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 14:31

So did you not want it and then found that you did? Or pretend to the whole way through?

I have to say I've NEVER had sex when I wasn't in the mood.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 14:31

I know what my partner is thinking and why he has sex because I talk to him about it.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 14:34

Like I said before, there's a big difference between not being in the mood at first but then getting into it and doing it purely because you know your partner might leave if you don't.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 14:36

Posie Not sneering just an alternative point of view. I would be willing to bet up £9.50 that your H probably has looked at porn (despite your threats of anger and punishment)

Bertrand
Most porn is already free and actually generated by amateurs. The only commercial benefits come from advertising. CGI porn will allow users to control the images - much like a VR game. But I'm glad we've cleared up that you would not object to this kind of porn.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 14:40

I would think that he has looked at porn in the dim and distant past, but not for a very long while.

I think it's quite sad that you assume that he definitely does. Considering we have teens and so blocks on the sort of internet that comes in the house and we share all iPhone stuff because we're shite at sorting out separate histories and such, and the only other thing is a work laptop whereby looking at porn would get him sacked....

Perhaps he's sneaking off to some porn hub cafe when I'm asleep?

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