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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Opinions on sex - bear with me

443 replies

Thurlow · 06/02/2016 19:59

A couple of threads on MN over the past few weeks have got me thinking seriously about some (or maybe just some MNs) opinions relating to sex. This isn't meant to be a TAAT or an attack on their opinions. But something about some of the opinions aired, or perhaps more of a general belief, has got me quite confused.

One was the airing, by several posters/people, of the opinion that any woman who says she enjoys partaking in a particular sex act is merely a "cool girl". In essence, they can't actually really enjoy it - they only think they do because porn and/or men have convinced them that they do. It struck me as... some women believing that other women cannot, in some way, be trusted to explore their own sexuality. This is hardly a completely weird sex act we're talking about. But there seem to be women who believe any woman who enjoys certain sexual acts - anal, facials etc - cannot possibly be doing it because they genuinely enjoy it, for whatever reason (physical, emotional i.e. submission etc).

Another was a very heated debate - that I was tempted to post this on, but thought a new thread on this board might be better - as regards situations where women don't feel like having sex with their partner. Now I'm not in any way advocating that anyone should ever have to engage in any form of sexual activity if they don't want to. No way. No one ever should.

But what struck me was that for almost all people in relationships, sex is one of the main things that differentiates your romantic relationship from a very close platonic relationship. For most people in a monogamous relationship, sex is the one thing you do only with your partner - whereas many people may also be as emotionally close to a friend or family member. Sex is also seen by many people as the real Big One when it comes to infidelity. Your partner having sex with someone else is generally unforgivable. It's one of the worst things anyone can do to anyone else. Equally, everyone hopes that their partner finds them attractive and wishes to have sex with them. Someone being told that they are no longer attractive to their partner is an equally terrible thing within a relationship.

Yet on this thread about not having sex when you feel like, there was a very strong feeling from many posters that a husband (in this scenario) who asks his wife for sex, who attempts to initiate sex, is being unreasonably demanding. Completely unreasonably demanding. A sex pest, to some posters. That it is so out of order for a husband to fancy the idea of having sex with his wife. There was discussion of "pawing" in relation to a man making moves on a woman. (I will stress I completely agree with the general sentiment that if you're knackered after being with kids all day, you should completely be able to say "nope, too tired", and also that any respectful partner will just accept that). He would be totally out of order for making any kind of move towards physical intimacy. Hugging, touching, attempting to kiss, things that are surely what most people do to show affection and perhaps start to initiate sex, were just "pawing" and were demanding.

I know I'm waffling but I'm also trying to work out for myself what many of these opinions made me feel.

So - if we hope the person that we have chosen to build our life together with finds us sexually attractive, and wants to be intimate with us in a physical way, because physical and sexual intimacy is one of the main things that differentiates a partnership from a friendship... Why do many women see it as wrong that a man might hope to have sex with his wife? (Leaving aside for a brief moment men who don't take no for an answer). Why is it so wrong that a man might touch a woman, hug or kiss in an attempt to see whether their partner might like to have sex?

And why do some women seem to believe (again, just judging by comments) that any man who would like to have sex is, essentially a sex pest? As if women don't feel like that too? Which tied in, in my mind, with that whole "cool girl" concept in relation to women liking anal sex, for example.

I'm not sure I've explained this properly but I've come away from MN over the past few weeks feeling that a lot of women don't seem to agree with the simple idea that both men and women have libidos and sexual tastes: men just want to "have sex", rather than be intimate with their partner; and women just put up with it when they feel they ought too, and should have a liking for anything other than "making love".

Does that make sense to anyone? Has anyone else felt like this?

OP posts:
Mide7 · 10/02/2016 14:42

Yes of course sparrow, I agree. i just don't think it's as black and white as some dyke makes out.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 14:51

Sparrow my OH likes me to do something for her sometimes (it is of a physical and arousing nature for her but not always for me). I don't always a want to do it (in advance of proceedings commencing).

And if she asked me in a moment of cool, dispassionate rationality, "Can you [ahem] my [what's it]?", I'd probably say "No ta" or even feel a smidge queasy (depending on my disposition at that time)..

But there are other times when I am willing to be persuaded to [ahem] her [what's it]. Typically I enjoy the fact that she enjoys it so much. Is that just a bit of give and take (in a loving marriage -18 years and counting). Or should I be saying "How very dare you coerce me and manipulate me to do such a vile and unholy act.? You are coercing me and it's abuse !!!"

Quite often the "invitation" to [ahem] her [what's it] is entirely non-verbal. Is this abuse???

itllallbefine · 10/02/2016 14:59

so let's get this right....on planet dyke, sex is only ever engaged in as a spontaneous act. I mean, if you ask your partner if she fancies a bit, and she says yes, then why didn't she ask you first ? We must assume from your ludicrous and smug gushings on here that any time you do have sex then the other one was "just about to ask" since both are up for it in an entirely equal way. As I believe I stated earlier, what bullshit.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 15:02

It'll. You have a bizarre grip on dykes relationship. And you are very aggressive.

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 15:13

Slow- I know this is all very serious but I would love it if your OH actually said "Can you Ahem my what's it?" Nothing like some dirty talk. Grin

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 15:18

I'm not sure what thread you're reading itll but no one said that. What I and Dyke were saying is that it's fine for one partner to suggest sex (either verbally or with kissing/touching) but if the other partner doesn't want jt then there should be no pressure on them to go ahead.

Mode, the whole 'it's not black and white' thing is a crock of shit. It is black and white. Sex is entirely optional and should always be entirely optional.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 15:19

Again, that should say Mide,

DeoGratias · 10/02/2016 15:23

I suspect you get a lot more good sex in relationships when one or other of you agrees even if not quite in the mood than if you just wait for the once in every 12 months or once a month when you are both very keen. However each to their own.

In most relationships all day every day each of you are doing all kind of things you don't really want to - it is what I call love. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 15:25

I don't think doing things like I don't particularly want to do, like cleaning the bathroom, is anything at all similar to having sex I don't want.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 15:29

I also don't see how one partner not being allows to decide for themselves how much sex they want can be conducive to a loving or happy relationship. It might keep the relationship going, at least for a while, but it wouldn't be worth it in my view. I love my DH but if he wanted me to give in to his sexual advances more often I'd tell him to get lost. I have sex when he and I are both in the mood.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 15:30

Mide7
After two glasses of chianti she whispers those words in the ear of any man in the vicinity. I've accepted my place.Blush

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 15:31

whys it a crock of shit sparrow? I'm not saying anyone should do anything because they are pressured. For me sometimes my partners needs come before mine, I'm entirely happy with that situation. She doesn't pressure me or suggest she would leave if I didn't.

DeoGratias · 10/02/2016 15:32

That is not what was said - no one said one partner is not allowed to decide. That is a fundamental issue. You decide if you want it but that doesn't mean one of you isn't agreeing to it even though you aren't hugely up for it. You go with the flow just as you might let your partner kiss you even if you're in a slightly bad mood. It's just part of the day to day tolerance of good relationships in my view. It is not about pressure - it's about love and tolerance and it is on both sides. If it's only on one side then you're a mug.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 15:39

I find this all pretty weird, this notion of allowing someone to kiss you if you don't want to....

When BOTH my husband and I want to have sex we do, if one of us isn't up for it we don't. Black and white.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 15:42

You choose, freely and without pressure, to have sex when you're not quite in the mood. The main point being that it's freely chosen. Nothing grey about that.

The 'grey area' is a concept spouted by people who want to excuse 'low level' coercion like subtle threats to leave, sulking etc. There is no grey area. When someone is freely and happily participating in sex (no matter what the motivation) it is obvious and anyone who says they don't know if their partner wants sex or not is either lying or so disconnected from their partner that one wonder what they're doing having sex at all. Plus if someone is ever not sure if their partner wants sex they could do this amazing revolutionary thing called talking.

itllallbefine · 10/02/2016 15:47

@Posie - i'm not sure what else somedyke would expect having suggested my sex life is tantamount to being raped on regular basis.

DeoGratias · 10/02/2016 15:49

It's a really interesting discussion, thank you. It's one reason I like the internet as you hear different views. We do seem to fall into two camps on this issue but all agree however that you need consent so I don't think it really matters. People just operate their relationships differently.

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 15:51

Itll - I'm genuinely a bit worried now. No one said anything about rape. Is there something in your relationship that you feel we're criticising? You could talk about it here, we will listen and try to understand.

PosieReturningParker · 10/02/2016 15:55

I've not seen any comment that said you were raped.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 15:56

Sparrow
SomeDyke was absolutely clear in her judgement of rape earlier in this thread. If I knew how to blummen copy and paste I would.

SlowFJH · 10/02/2016 16:07

See comment from SomeDyke at 11:16...

Let's cut the crap, that is rape. Maybe difficult to prosecute or convict but morally it is rape. Making anyone who does it a rapist

It's comments like that the really make me worried for my teenage sons and the worry that they could be dragged through the courts and have their lives ruined by someone who subscribes to this view (as happened recently to the guy at Durham University - while his accuser has total annonymity).

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 16:08

Yes, a bit back in the thread she said having sex with someone you know doesn't really want it, but is only doing it to shut you up/keep you happy/stop you leaving is rape. That's not a very controversial thing to say surely?

TheSparrowhawk · 10/02/2016 16:10

If you're worried about your sons, slow, then tell them only to have sex with when they're sure their partner is happy and willing. It's not that hard. Given that more than 85,000 women are raped every year I think girls have more to worry about really.

Mide7 · 10/02/2016 16:13

Sparrow- different grey area, I'm not excusing pressure or coercion and agree that's not a grey area.
The issue I have is that people are saying couples should only have sex when they are both 100% in the mood. Me and my partner are busy, we have a young child, I have a tiring and time consuming hobbie. IMO these things take work to keep going. That's all I'm saying.

You obviously have a different opinion which I get but I don't think it's one size fits all.

BertrandRussell · 10/02/2016 16:17

"It's comments like that the really make me worried for my teenage sons and the worry that they could be dragged through the courts and have their lives ruined by someone who subscribes to this view "

Just tell them not to have sex with people unless they are sure that the other person wants to have sex with them. It's not hard.

Me? I'm more worried about my daughters.

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