Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

Bertrand "this obsession with dividing small children into males and females with so much emphasis is the antithesis of feminism should be aiming for for me" is absolutely not blaming girls for this - why on earth would you assume that? That is like suggesting that those who object to gendered toy aisles are blaming girls for liking pink sparkly tat ... It is blaming society for bringing things to this ridiculous stage.

Thank you for answering, Schwab.

"but it is a pity people can't be relied on to be sensible and empathetic"

That cuts both ways though with respect to being sensible and empathetic to girls.

I personally wouldn't be too fussed by an 8-10 year old boy in a communal changing space but could completely understand an 8-10 year old girl who was developing breasts might well be.

Changing at swimming also involves more exposed flesh than changing at school, where if 8-9 year olds (ie year 4 children) are changing together, girls can wear crop tops and pull on shorts under skirts etc if they feel self conscious, which isn't possible for swimming.

Those that have answered re separate changing at school have said year 4 or year 5 have been separated - so that means no 10 year olds are changing together at those schools.

Family changing rooms seem the only solution!

Or, Schwab, if there were a CRB checked lifeguard in the male changing room to keep an eye out (including for wandering off behaviour as well as more sinister things!) would that work for you?

DrSeussRevived I don-'t even have this problem tbh, despite having an 8 year old boy :o We use a pool with a changing village and my 8 yo is very competent and now quite confident.

I just understand the problem as at 6 my son was so socially anxious I was beginning to think we would have to investigate ASD... he wouldn't get in a car with his beloved and well known to him grandparents to go to the Kindergarten "grandparents day" for example, because I was the one who should take him to Kindergarten and he just couldn't go there without me - he was big and strong and clung to the door frame and howled, and in the end I had to take him, which was embarrassing for all concerned including him as all the other kids were there with a grandparent or 2 or 3 or 4 but no parents ... At the same age he would not go into any public toilet (either gender) without me and if pushed to would run in and run out again claiming to have been, he was properly scared but the mens was worse because he is very sensitive to smell and they do tend to smell more, and be more unfamiliar as of course they are differnt to the women's which I had always (obviously) had to take him into when smaller.

Weirdly my son grew out of the anxiety - so I just do get why some parents would not be able to send a child without any kind of SN diagnosis into any unfamiliar big public changing room alone, even without any fear of male predators.

If your child has a diagnosed SN you can be a bit more confident insisting on access to disabled facilities, but what if you have no diagnosis just a mysteriously anxious/ disorganised/ immature kid who you know won't manage the male changing room totally alone?

A CRB checked male lifeguard in the changing room is a lovely idea but won't help the anxious/ disorganised/ clumsy/ possibly ASD or dyspraxic but also maybe just having an intense anxious phase or a bit immature kid who just isn't quite average as an 8 yo and needs a bit of space to grow up a bit before going it alone.

A bit of flexibility is sensible.

It should be the exception not the norm of course - it is taking the pee if there are lots of older looking boys in the womens.

Of course it cuts both ways and mothers who need to supervise their dependant male children should be aware of those around them and get the boy into a cubicle or a quiet corner and closely monitor him - but the rigid rule that 8 year old boys must "man up" or else their entire family (sisters too...) just need to take the hit and not go swimming is so intolerant and rigid and ends up punishing the mother - the woman - for being in a position where she is (whether at that point in time or always) solely responsible for a male child.

I've only read the first three pages but what seems to emerge is a strongly held view that adult men are dangerous and must be segregated from all children - and youths.

So, either we need changing rooms set up as 'men, youths, women & girls' or as 'men, women, family changing'. Or, all cubicled changing.

Personally, I have as an adult been sexually harassed (followed some distance while being talked to obscenely, leered at, bum grabbed) by pre-pubescent boys. It's awful, as it is intimidating, especially if more than one of them but you cannot lash out verbally or defend yourself in the same way you could with an adult man, as they're 'just a child'. Horrible, horrible, horrible. And I was in my late 20s, not an unworldly pubescent girl.

That is awful lottie - these were surely not 8/9/ 10 year olds were they?

There is something wrong with society if children under 10 of either gender are so sexualised ... That is entire premis underlying the argument that 8 year olds need to man up and get out from under their mummy's skirts in case their presense makes girls the same age uncomfortable does imply the sexualisation of 8/9 year old children of both genders, and a deep discomfort within their own skin for the girls - for which of course the girls are not at all to be blamed, but society is...

As society can't be fixed quickly then of course changing villages are the solution. They are better anyway for all sorts of reasons.

Doesn't help the OP with her bigger, more unsettling debate over women's refuges, though I think both problems are rooted in sexualising children so young, way pre puberty, and passing the message on to them that they are their gender first and children/ members of their family second... (surely the retreats are a red herring as they are kind of holidays aren't they? They sound like adult women's spaces where any child but a babe in arms would be a distraction).

If your kid is 12, has not got pretty SEN issues, he should in the male change rooms. At some point you have to let them go .

I think ds was about 8 when he refused to go into ladies toilets and change rooms. There were times when I had to force the issue for his safety / my piece of mind. Many a day have I stood outide mens toilets calling to him.

Now at 11, he would be mortified at being there. At 12 No. These boys have hit puberty. That is a major cut off point for me.

I was sexually assaulted by a teenage girl once- I was on my bike and she and her mates obviously thought it a hilarious joke to grab my bum as I was stopped at lights. A proper grab, touching my genitals through my clothes, not just pinching arse cheeks.

So I wouldn't put it past girls to sexually harass or make inappropriate comments either.

So my immediate view is that the issue should be framed as 'given that men's spaces may not be safe for boys and women's spaces are not appropriate for boys over the age of about 8 (because while my son is delightful and yours is very pleasant, boys over a certain age do start to see women sexually and some boys - those other ones whose parents we don't know - do leer at and actively harrass women), what spaces can be created for older boys and youths, to keep them safe?

I think that question is new and arises from greater awareness of the dangers posed by some men to children and teenagers.

The thing to do therefore is acknowledge and address that new and important question - not to impinge, thoughtlessly, unquestioningly, upon women's spaces instead.

But to go back to the OP, small children are small children and just fine.

And yes, I suspect there may be a view in certain small circles that mothers have in some way surrendered themselves to the patriarchy, so no can no longer have true or valuable thoughts or rights.

I think that question is new and arises from greater awareness of the dangers posed by some men to children and teenagers.

I'd disagree with this. The whole reason we have sex segregated spaces is because men were aware of the dangers others of their sex posed to women and children.

How to get round it now that children are becoming hyper-sexualised earlier and earlier is new. And the only way round it is to either have age range specific changing rooms or family changing rooms for those like my family who had to stop using public baths because DS2 was physically incapable of sorting himself out when he had passed the age at which he was expected to be able to do so.

Don't you think awareness - or rather acknowledgement - of the risks some men pose to boys and youths is new? 30 years ago boys would have been sent into the men's changing, loos etc without much thought wouldn't they?

I think the boy and boys who sexually harassed me were 11 or 12. Pre-pubescent. It's happened to someone else I know - and who talked about it. I don't believe it's uncommon.

And, thinking of my, perfectly nice, much younger brother, age 11-12 was 'peak dawning sexual awareness silliness' in terms of stealing my underwear, giggling with little friend about it etc.

12 is also about the age when boys become stronger than women.

At what age do children, of both sexes, become uncomfortable about changing in mixed groups? I'd think about at the time they move from infant to junior school - so seven.

My DC is too young but my own memory of 'increased awareness of difference' and of common practice, matches that.

Schwab, please stop using the phrase "man up" to describe the position of those who disagree with you. None of us have used it.

It's a horrible phrase and often used in a sexist fashion though you aren't doing so here. If you mean "grow up", please say that. Thanks.

I think 8 is an ideal cut off. Not least because you'll always get those who push the boundaries and continue past the guidelines. And re the maturity to change alone, I think plenty of boys are capable before then, 8 allows for those later to mature to catch up, or for a parent to suspect sn.

Regardless of whether it clashes with any entitlement some mothers feel is due them, the fact remains 9/10/11 year old girls do not wish to undress in front of boys in their peer group. That doesn't mean they are either sexualised, or their mothers aren't being empathic towards the mothers of sons.

"mothers who need to supervise their dependant male children should be aware of those around them and get the boy into a cubicle or a quiet corner and closely monitor him"

And I suspect, in practice, if this was happening, few women or girls would object or possibly not even notice. But what if the mother isn't supervising quite as closely as we'd like?

Rules are always going to draw the line in a way that puts some worthy cases on the "wrong" side - they are always a balancing act. If 10 is the rule then many will choose 10 regardless of the behaviour of their individual 10 year old.

If family cubicles were reserved for families with under 10s, though, there could be more facilities that could offer them.

lottie your posts are interesting (in a good way, I have had a glass of wine - I am not being sarcastic).

I am surprised at your suggestion of 7 as the age at which children become uncomfortable changing in front of each other - I have a 10.5 year old girl who is happy changing in front of her 8.5 year old brother (she doesn't have to, she has her own room nowhere near his due to the layout of our house, but wanders around the entire first floor of our house in the process of getting dressed and undressed, as does he. She also still occasionally baths with him when they want to play Playbobile in the bath... her suggestion, though I find it slightly sad that she recently asked him to promise not to tell his friends they do that - met by a blank look from him and a question about why he would talk about being in the bath to his friends...)

11 is very different than 8/9 - I think 8 is a good guideline but it is strange and artificial and penalises some bothers to get so hung up on that precise birthday and not have a bit of sensible flexibility. 8 is still very young... 11 is an age when puberty might have started for boys (a boy going through puberty at 8 would be a medical problem, not within the normal range, and for a girl it is the very, very youngest end of the normal range).

*mothers not bothers

Don't you think awareness - or rather acknowledgement - of the risks some men pose to boys and youths is new? 30 years ago boys would have been sent into the men's changing, loos etc without much thought wouldn't they?

No, I really don't think so. And no, 30 years ago boys wouldn't have been sent into the men's without thought. Well, not in my experience anyway.

Schwab, would your DD undress in front of a friend of your DS? I think family is a bit different.

DrSeuss I was somewhat playing devils advocate with the phrase "man up" - there is a degree of shaming of boys who do not go off on their own to the men's while their sisters and mothers and younger brothers go together to the women's. I think there is more tolerance of girls not wanting to go into a room full of adult and teen and older child strangers alone... I agree its a nasty phrase, I don't use it in real life.

I think its part of the problem - that we expect 8 year old boys to take their responsibility as men and go off on their own without their mothers, when our 8/9/10 year old daughters and preschool boys stay with us because they are girls/ "little"... and and "big boys" can't stay with their mummies (again using the phase a little tongue in cheek, but it is there, in the attitude and the slight contempt for any 8 yo boy who doesn't confidently trot off to the men's and doesn't have diagnosed SN.

DrSeuss not in the house, that would be weird, just as it would be weird for her to randomly undress infront of an adult female friend of mine... but she happily gets changed alfresco at the open air pool we go to, as do lots of teens...

"mothers who need to supervise their dependant male children should be aware of those around them and get the boy into a cubicle or a quiet corner and closely monitor him"

I wish. IME the boys are changed bang in the middle of the communal area, and quite often are allowed to run around, often naked. Usually with the mothers looking on in that "what can you do, boys will be boys" manner.

Like I said, the problem I am having now is not aimed at small boys, but that boundaries have been pushed and pushed, so quite frequently there are more boys being changed than girls, and increasingly 9/10/11 boys being taken in, boys being left completely unsupervised, and boys being taken in who are not even getting changed. Boys being sent in alone to use the showers, when there are only curtains for privacy. Entire families using the women's as a short cut to the pool.

This is despite there being alternative changing. The women's is just closer to the pool, so it's either laziness, or unfamiliarity with the centre, easily fixed by asking a member of staff.

The mothers of these boys need to realise that they are making girls uncomfortable, and that they feel they can't use their own changing facilities. Not just use the girls because that's what they want to do, who cares if they upset those who are supposed to be using it.

Michah well that's obviously an abuse of the set up and a case of idiots spoiling things for the rest of us - if everyone were sensible then the occasional mother who's boy still falls into the vulnerable dependant child could take him into the women's and, as I said, straight into a cubicle or quiet corner and supervise him closely and take him straight out to the pool.

It sounds as if lazy, entitled idiots are using the women's as general family changing at your pool. Obviously that is not right unless the men's is the same and both are fully cubicles - in which case they are no longer men's and women's changing but 2 unisex, cubicled, changing areas.

"that we expect 8 year old boys to take their responsibility as men and go off on their own without their mothers, when our 8/9/10 year old daughters and preschool boys stay with us because they are girls/ "little"... and and "big boys" can't stay with their mummies (again using the phase a little tongue in cheek, but it is there, in the attitude and the slight contempt for any 8 yo boy who doesn't confidently trot off to the men's and doesn't have diagnosed SN"

Where have you seen contempt on this thread? I've only seen concern about the impact on girls.

8 year old girls also need to go into the female changing rooms alone if they go swimming with their dads so not quite sure why you think it's more unfair on boys.

I am a mother of boys, BTW.