Is the trans lobby a force for good for XX women?

(178 Posts)
PosieReturningParker Wed 16-Mar-16 22:54:04

I'll set out my stall for any new posters or visitors to this topic.

Transgender individuals, I'm sure, have a very tough time, suicide rates are high (although there's no conclusive reasons as to why, some are compounded with other mental health issues, some need validation, sometimes transition doesn't provide answers and so on, it's hugely complex). We owe it to the individuals and those close to them to find out why.

Bottom line transgender individuals deserve the same human rights and respect as all human beings.

The trans lobby does not represent most transgender people who want to live their lives in peace and happiness, without harm.

Here's some things to be aware of:

If there's a trans child at school who wishes to change in the opposite sex changing room, if your child feels uncomfortable your child will be asked to move.

There are numerous support groups for women whose husbands transition late in life due to a high rate of misogynistic mental/physical abuse once these men decide they want to be/are trans.

A transwoman without any surgery can compete as a woman at the olympics, there are already late transitioned trans in women's college teams in the USA.

At the moment in parliament a trans bill is about to go through that legally recognises transwomen as women, woman becomes meaningless. So diversity in companies that require women to be employed can employ a transwoman, refuge and rape crisis centres will have to accept transwomen. Transwomen will have access to all women's space.

Remember transwoman can be someone who simply says I'm a woman, self identity.

It's worthwhile noting that sexual and violent crime rates do not alter with transition, studies in both Europe and USA confirm this. Studies also show transgender women commit sexual violence 6% more than men, according to a Californian study of inmates.

Children who are not taught about homosexuality will/can be taught about transgender at primary school.

Now you know.

Feminists are routinely being silenced with accusations of bigotry or transphobia for asking that women only safe spaces remain for women only, obviously if transwomen are recognised legally as women there won't be any.


Are the trans lobby hell bent on erasing women?

PosieReturningParker Wed 16-Mar-16 22:54:42

Excuse grammar

MyCrispBag Wed 16-Mar-16 23:00:14

Now you know.

A brief scan of the board here will demonstrate that most of us already knew. This is favourite topic on this board at the moment.

MyCrispBag Wed 16-Mar-16 23:01:07

"Children who are not taught about homosexuality will/can be taught about transgender at primary school. "

I am curious to know what this means?

PosieReturningParker Wed 16-Mar-16 23:01:28

I hope you're right.

PosieReturningParker Wed 16-Mar-16 23:02:17

There are trans action groups going around primary schools. These schools don't teach children about homosexuality in sex ed.

VertigoNun Wed 16-Mar-16 23:02:55

Thanks for the overview.

MyCrispBag Wed 16-Mar-16 23:04:49

I hope you're right.

Like I say you can look at the board. You don't need to hope.

There are trans action groups going around primary schools. These schools don't teach children about homosexuality in sex ed.

Still confused both by the information and the implication. How do you know this? What does homosexuality have to do with it?

PosieReturningParker Wed 16-Mar-16 23:10:01

Many "trans" children (about 80%) go into adulthood and don't transition, they are usually homosexual. So it's far more likely that a child will turn out homosexual but this isn't discussed at primary age, trans gender is.

shins Wed 16-Mar-16 23:10:04

Today an abortion rights group (I live in Ireland) posted on FB as they linked to an article about female oppression : "Not all people who get abortions are women, but most are and..." What the fuck is this madness? These are young feminists.

MyCrispBag Wed 16-Mar-16 23:14:56

Many "trans" children (about 80%) go into adulthood and don't transition, they are usually homosexual. So it's far more likely that a child will turn out homosexual but this isn't discussed at primary age, trans gender is.

Ah okay, very good point.

ILeaveTheRoomForTwoMinutes Wed 16-Mar-16 23:37:33

Thanks for the thread, but I think this would have been better in chat. Here now though.

Following on from the men in safe spaces thread, could someone post the pic of the Bristol uni poster on here?

I'm shock at that.

Muttaburrasaurus Thu 17-Mar-16 01:04:43

I think it is a shame as there is the potential for those advocating for transgender rights and feminists to be natural allies and could be both focused on working against male violence. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to always be working out that way though equally I think what happens in the NUS or social media don't necessarily reflect the rest of society. I notice that there is much more likely to be awareness in those places where decisions are being made that affect both womens rights and trans rights. Not always but it is more likely and I think the problems will become more evident. I don't agree at all with the 'you're on the wrong side of history' thing - I'm experienceing movement in both directions of thought. Where I work we have a very clear gender critcally informed understanding that transwomen won't be accommodated in the female dorm area but in the unisex beds. I think having treated transwomen with rape convictions focuses the mind somewhat. I think if we do end up with changes to legislation they will be temporary as the problems become clearer. I do worry that women will get harmed in the meantime though. I hope that in the longer run it might mean there can be a better alliance between transactivists and feminists and i hope it might lead to gender nonconforming people to be more accepted.
On another note but related to your op, I work in mental health and it is of no surprise to me that there is a high rate of transgender people who have had suicidal thoughts. I'm not aware that there is very clear evidence about the rates of completed suicide which is a often quite different thing. I would not want to dismiss the distress suffered by those with suicidal thoughts nor the fact there is obviously a link with completed suicide. I also am sure they face stigma and discrimination which contributes to depression, hopelesness and suicide risk. However to me it relates to the fact that there is a clear overlap with various mental health conditions. For example suicidal gestures and attempts are characteristic of emotionally unstable personality disorder which also includes symptoms such as 'disturbances in self image, aims and internal preferences'. I think most mental health professionals are very well aware of the overlap with trans feelings and cluster B personality disorders although you also meet plenty of transgender people who clearly dont have any other mental health condition.
I've also heard gender critical comments for many years - for example, in relation to the practicalities of exactly how you are meant to make a diagnosis. The information you mention about homosexuality being a more likely outcome of childhood dysphoria is also well known and there are open discussions about the impact of social media, the issues around family dynamics and a sense of identity and belonging that may be major factors. For me its also entirely unsurprising that the group who appear to be driving some of the more unhelpful activism are so intent on self identification as this also fits very well within cluster B pathology (something about a really strong desire to have an 'explainable' and as concrete as possible explanation for their genuine distress and to have control over that explanation). Obviously the implications regarding womens rights are not always recognised or articulated well but I have found where I work most people quite easily see the problem and the consequences when its pointed out. I do think raising awareness of the risk to womens safety amongst key groups would be a productive route for feminists and a feminist understanding would help them articulate the issues and allow them to lobby the government. Healthcare and prisons come to mind especially.

KateInKorea Thu 17-Mar-16 01:25:24

Standing ovation to muttaburrasaurus thank you so much.

VertigoNun Thu 17-Mar-16 01:30:22

Thank goodness there are women safe in your place of work.

ThumbWitchesAbroad Thu 17-Mar-16 01:38:24

I do hope you're right, Muttabasaurus, that any change in legislation towards the US "I am a woman because I say I am" situation, is only temporary. I fear it won't be though, if it gets passed in the first place. And I do strongly hope it ISN'T passed in the first place, precisely because of the danger to biological women in women-only spaces, from some men-who-say-they-are-women.

ThumbWitchesAbroad Thu 17-Mar-16 01:39:08

Sorry for buggering up your name there, Muttaburrasaurus blush

VertigoNun Thu 17-Mar-16 01:45:50

It makes sense that Maria Miller and co need collateral damage reports to awaken them. Fucking tragic for the women who will pay the price. sadangry

PosieReturningParker Thu 17-Mar-16 06:59:37

Great post mutta

Maryz Thu 17-Mar-16 12:01:02

Can I just place mark here? You lot know a lot more than I do about all this, but I'm trying to catch up so will be back when my eyes can take the new font

grimbletart Thu 17-Mar-16 15:19:30

Obviously the implications regarding womens rights are not always recognised or articulated well but I have found where I work most people quite easily see the problem and the consequences when its pointed out.

That's really interesting. I can't help feeling that anyone to whom the potential problems are not obvious and has to have them pointed out has to be a special kind of thick.

noeffingidea Thu 17-Mar-16 15:30:57

vertigo women being collateral damage is just par for the course really, isn't it. Same as women (and children) are supposed to take one 'for the team' in the cause of multi culturialism. See Rotherham, Cologne, Sweden, etc etc. Same thing.

VashtaNerada Thu 17-Mar-16 15:36:16

Quite a few things you've named in your OP are incorrect or misleading. For example...

If there's a trans child at school who wishes to change in the opposite sex changing room, if your child feels uncomfortable your child will be asked to move.
Entirely depends on the school, the children, the age etc. (Currently only 'gender reassignment' is protected by equality law by the way, meaning most trans children aren't covered anyway.)

Remember transwoman can be someone who simply says I'm a woman, self identity.
Depends again on circumstances. Many people believe in self-definition but doesn't apply in sport for example.

Children who are not taught about homosexuality will/can be taught about transgender at primary school.
There are a number of different providers who visit school to discuss LGBT issues. Some only focus on sexual orientation, some on gender identity, some on both. Every provider I know gives sensible age-appropriate advice eg "colours are for everyone", "it's okay for boys to wear dresses sometimes", "all families are different". Nobody is recruiting children to a sinister trans agenda.

This is a side of MN I find particularly unpleasant and unwelcoming. There are some sensible posters who ask interesting questions and raise genuine concerns, but also those who fear-monger, stereotype and vilify.

thedancingbear Thu 17-Mar-16 16:10:26

gactupdate.wordpress.com/notes/suicide/

On another note but related to your op, I work in mental health and it is of no surprise to me that there is a high rate of gay people who have had suicidal thoughts....I would not want to dismiss the distress suffered by those with suicidal thoughts nor the fact there is obviously a link with completed suicide. I also am sure they face stigma and discrimination which contributes to depression, hopelesness and suicide risk. However to me it relates to the fact that there is a clear overlap with various mental health conditions. For example suicidal gestures and attempts are characteristic of emotionally unstable personality disorder which also includes symptoms such as 'disturbances in self image, aims and internal preferences'. I think most mental health professionals are very well aware of the overlap with gay feelings and cluster B personality disorders although you also meet plenty of gay people who clearly dont have any other mental health condition.

FFS. I mean, seriously, FFS. I appreciate the trans-exclusionary position to a large degree, but some of the attempts to paint transsexuality as a mental illness, or a perversion, are pretty repellent to be honest.

IAmTheWhoreOfBabylon Thu 17-Mar-16 16:26:42

why so offended by mental illness? are you phobic or mental illness exclusionary?
Believing you are in the wrong body is surely a mental illness but why so horrified by the thought of mental illness hmm
It could make one wonder what your feelings towards those who suffer mental illness are

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now