Young dependent male children in women's only spaces?

[PrincessTeacake]

Long term lurker here, very infrequent contributer.

Circumstances over the last year have meant I spent most of my very little free time on Tumblr, for convenience's sake, and I fell into the radfem circles there. Every now and then there's a rift in the community over something and it all gets a bit childish because they are mostly young and quite reactionary. I stay out of it for the most part, but I wanted to get some (more sensible) opinions here on the latest rift.

Someone brought up the topic of little boys in women's only spaces (bathrooms, changing rooms, emergency shelters) and there was a lot of talk about how boys can't be trusted under any circumstances, that it was equally as bad as letting intact transwomen in, and naturally some of the mothers in the community got quite upset. There was a lot of anti-child rhetoric being thrown around and some harassment of the mothers.

What's the consensus here? I'm asking mostly for one of my online friends, she was very upset by this discussion and was on the receiving end of quite a bit of the bullying.

vulnerable dependant child category* , for whatever reason

DrSeuss the contempt is there in society and in the "most 8 year olds should be able to... most can even earlier" type comments.

Of course it is equally difficult for some 8 year old girls. Of course most can do it (as can most boys) 8 is a good guide line but setting it in stone allowing no flexibility and saying those who can't cope have to either not go or demand to use disabled facilities they are not really entitled to use and which would not be sufficient for everyone if people without disabilities or diagnosed SN started using them, penalises some mothers, some girls, some boys...

That is kind of my point - why are we so rigid about separating such young children from their parents in order to obey arbitrary single sex rules.

I do get the "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" need to draw a line in the sand though, due to situations like the one Michah described. That's beyond my experience though - I've never seen anything like that happening.

Schwab, but the reason for saying "most 8 year olds can..." Is to show that the rule is in approx the right place. Most 6 year olds can't get themselves through a changing room alone so it wouldn't make sense to have that as the rule.

It's a balance between the age of physical self consciousness and the age of the ability to be a little independent in this way.

I'm not rigid on seperating some children from their parents to obey some arbitrary single sex rules. I am however extremely fixed in my opinion that my child, or anyone else's, should not be expected to expose their developing bodies against their wishes to boys in their age range for the convenience/ choice of another parent. Nor should the onus on avoiding that situation be placed on the female who is using a female space as intended.

Its not convenience and choice lurked for some people - or at least only to the extent that going swimming or using public toilets at all is convenience and choice. If an 8 year old child of either gender is too anxious or disorganised or vulnerable to use another changing room, sometimes a distance away - that is not only to get changed but often to navigate their way, lock their belongings away, not drop their pants in a puddle and loose their socks, remember how to put the money into and to take the key out of the locker, go out through the right door, not bump into anyone or bother anyone inadvertently, alone, then the only choice their mother has is take that child with her into the changing room she uses or not go at all. If there are no family facilities and the only disabled facility is the disabled loo, its not much of a choice and not at all about convenience.

Right, so because somebody elses child can't change alone, for whatever reason, the young girl should be put in the position of choosing between unwillingly exposing herself or staying away? Your attitude is basically 'I have this problem. The solution is to make it the problem of another person'.

Your ds may well be in the minority of nt 8yr olds genuinely not mature enough to change alone yet. (Rather than the pfb apron strings category which also exists). And it's absolutely fine for him not yet to be at that stage. But you don't seem to understand that your sons current level of independence isn't a problem you should be offloading onto young girls. It wouldn't bother me as an adult if your son was present while I changed. But as an adult woman, I don't generally feel comfortable stripping infront of random adult males. Entirely logical that a young girl, with a newly developing/ developed body would feel the same way about a boy in her age range.

Pure selfishness and entitlement to argue otherwise.

I really do think the solution is for more family change facilities to be on offer.

I have 2dds, no ds, so can only give my opinion based on how it affects girls.

Dd1 started developing breasts at the end of year 4 (age 9). She became acutely uncomfortable changing for pe at school because they all got changed together til the end of year 5. That uncomfortableness was entirely because boys were staring at her while she changed. These were boys of 8 and 9, no older. And she was wearing underwear when changing for pe, that's not possible when going swimming. So for her, if she walked into a communal changing room and saw boys of around 9 in there, she would not get changed, she would miss out on swimming. Dd2 is only 5 so it's not an issue yet for her, BUT if dh takes her swimming she goes into the girls on her own rather than go in the boys. That's not possible for a lot of 5yos, because they just aren't capable yet, but by the age of 8 the majority of children can manage it.

There has to be a solution to the problem that keeps older boys who aren't yet capable of changing alone safe and happy, while not restricting girls like my DD who will not/cannot change in front of boys. Providing family cubicles or cubicles in a unisex village style room would allow for both sets of people to change in comfort. That's what we need to push for, rather than continue with a situation that makes one or other group of people uncomfortable.

The number of NT 8 year olds of either gender who are not capable of getting themselves dressed must be vanishingly small, though, surely?

I would think so, but I don't think there are currently enough disabled or family change facilities to cater for all the disabled adults and all older children with SN. My local pool only has one cubicle that isn't within a communal single sex room, which wouldn't be enough if there were 2 dcs who need help from a parent of the opposite sex in the same club/lesson.

Never had to wait an excessive time to use disabled/family facilities. Used a staff room once at a huge meet. And for the orobably very few anxious '8' year olds its hopfully only for a year or so so hardly a major problem - ive never seen huge ques of 8/9/10 year olds outside the disabled facilities.

"So for her, if she walked into a communal changing room and saw boys of around 9 in there, she would not get changed, she would miss out on swimming."

This is what worries me.

"And for the orobably very few anxious '8' year olds its hopfully only for a year or so so hardly a major problem - ive never seen huge ques of 8/9/10 year olds outside the disabled facilities."

Upthread I believe that me mentioning the possibility of missing out on swimming for a year/only going when an older boy or adult male could come too/finding a solution such as asking staff members for a neutral place to get ready was akin to the treatment of women in Afghanistan!

It just needs a bit of bloody common sense.

lurked you clearly haven't read the thread - I don't have this problem and have sad as much repeatedly; I merely have experience from when my son was only 6 that allows me to empathise with women in this position, and a feeling that a society in which such young children are sexualised is wrong.

DrSeuss it worries me too, because she won't be the only girl to miss out. And this was a girl who had no hang ups about her body at all until boys at school started staring at her. The thing is, none of the other people changing would ever have been aware of her discomfort, she wouldn't have caused a scene, she wouldn't have complained, all she'd have done would be to leave, quietly, leaving the boys in her space.

I think 8 is a reasonable cut off, but can't see any way round the fact that this means that some boys may not always get to swim, if their mother makes the judgment that at that particular pool, or given their son's particular level of maturity, sending them into the male changing room alone isn't going to work or isn't safe. And a mother simply going into the male changing rooms instead isn't a solution either (I'm not sure how anyone could possibly think it is) because that's not respecting the space of e.g. teenage boys who might be acutely sensitive to the presence of even adult women.

A woman's discomfort with sending a vulnerable child of any sex into a particular environment without an adult is not something that should ever be minimized and dismissed as silly because someone else thinks the risk isn't that huge, any more than a woman's discomfort or judgement of risk should be dismissed in any other situation just because acknowledging it would create an inconvenient requirement for action.

Basically there is no solution, if you respect everyone's feelings then some young boys (even entirely safe, prepubescent, accompanied by a parent, young boys), and possibly their sisters who would have gone swimming that day too, will not get to swim and do the activities they'd otherwise get to do. This is a problem women face when they are in the role of caring for young dependent male children, even if they have girls too, and as such a perfectly valid subject for discussion amongst feminists. I'd hope that given that women are affected either way no one would just shrug their shoulders and say it's not their problem as they don't have sons. (That would be a bit too much like childfree feminists shrugging their shoulders and saying maternity issues aren't their problem.)

Everyone wins if there are more cubicles and family changing rooms - personally I would have been much more comfortable in changing rooms with no other girls, as well as no other boys. I felt at least as self-conscious and stressed around other girls (more so the older I got) as I would have done with boys. There will be girls and women of all ages not going swimming at all to avoid tiny communal changing rooms where everyone's in each other's space - they're just awful.

In fact the whole growing breasts thing made me want desperately to avoid anyone seeing me, male or female, adult or child. That's not to say it therefore would have been fine to have boys there - it still wouldn't have been - but the idea that everything was fine and I was relaxed so long as no boys were there is ludicrous. From that age on I wanted privacy, full stop. Girls rarely get it.

schwab I have rtft. But I'm guilty of using 'you' to reply to your stance it's ok for anyone in that position to invade a young girls privacy.

Of course there are better arrangements than the current female, male and token disabled facilities. But right now that isn't the situation.

Hmm. I'm a bit torn here. Because I actually think, that while a mother's discomfort at sending a NT 8 year old into the male changing room shouldn't be dismissed- it certainly shouldn't be allowed to take priority over the needs of others. Because, frankly it is a bit silly. He just isn't at any risk-it's a family swimming pool at a busy time.

I'm wondering if you read my post at all Bertrand? I didn't say it should be allowed to take priority over the needs of others - I said precisely the opposite, that the outcome would be that some boys in this situation wouldn't be able to swim.

I think it needs to be admitted that that will be the outcome, though, rather than there being some pretence that it's all fine because it's a silly concern anyway so anyone who doesn't think any eight year old boy will be fine in any men's changing room any time is stupid and if they choose not to send their child in there then it's their fault and nothing to do with how changing rooms are set up.

We should respect everyone's feelings of comfort/discomfort with certain situations (not just the group whose feelings we share). That means accepting that if some boys who are eight or nine sometimes don't get to swim (and nor do their sisters who will only get to swim if all siblings can), this is not a sign that their mothers are doing something wrong and being ridiculous.

Women with young boys are just not very well catered for, the way things are currently arranged (and that's an observation, not a complaint, by the way, before anyone rushes to be the first to post "well why not campaign for better arrangements then"). Since they aren't well catered for, sometimes they won't be able to swim.

Cubicles would help. Extra rooms or bits of rooms round corners set aside for women with young boys would help. All sorts of things would help. I hope things will improve in the future.

"that the outcome would be that some boys in this situation wouldn't be able to swim."

I accept that. And I also accept that in an ideal world, there would be loads of family changing rooms. But most swimming pools struggle for money and space, so that's probably not going to happen.

So pragmatically, the thing to do is to address irrational fears. And it is irrational to think that your 8 year old boy is in danger in a male changing room.

I agree with Bertrand, it is rather irrational to think a NT 8 year old would be in danger in a male changing room in normal circumstances. I can understand not wanting to send them in if its a quiet day and there's a chance there might be only one other person in there but I expect most people don't take their children swimming at such quiet times.

Where we lived at the time, a man had been photographing boys in the changing rooms of the local swimming baths. He hadn't touched any of them, yet, but as anyone who knows anything about this sort of crime will tell you, it was just a matter of time. Not quite so irrational as some would like us to believe.

Similar has happened in women's changing rooms. Anywhere where humans are, even momentarily naked, is a pull for perverts of all kinds.

I wouldn't, for one second, suggest that there are perverts in every changing room, however, I also wouldn't be crass enough to suggest that parents' worries about such things happening are irrational. Because they aren't.

If I wouldn't feel safe in male changing rooms and I would be stupid to take the risk then I would certainly never send my disabled son into that situation either. Not because he is at greater risk than I am, but because he lacks the wherewithal to deal with out of the way situations arising.

None of this negates that women and girls have the right not to be ogled by anyone. However, practically, it does mean that for a period of time, a sizeable number of children will be unable to go swimming which is sad, but easily solved by having the changing areas set out slightly differently.

"Where we lived at the time, a man had been photographing boys in the changing rooms of the local swimming baths."

Gosh. What sentence did he get?

"If I wouldn't feel safe in male changing rooms and I would be stupid to take the risk then I would certainly never send my disabled son into that situation either. Not because he is at greater risk than I am, but because he lacks the wherewithal to deal with out of the way situations arising"

Do you really think you would be in danger if you changed in the men's changing room? I'm not suggesting you do it- it would be horrible and embarrassing for all concerned- but would you feelat risk??

If your child has disabilities, by the way, nobody is suggesting he should have to change alone.

I already covered why the risk of changing in a men's changing room wouldn't be worth it Bertrand. Try RTFT.

Gosh. What sentence did he get?

Given that it was over 10 years ago, I don't remember what sentence he got, I could have a google if it makes you feel better. I'll even translate it for you, if I can find it. Almost certainly nothing very much, same as he would get today. Sorry it doesn't fit into your 'women are stupid and irrational' narrative, though I don't think there was any need to pretend the wide eyed surprise thing, very passive aggressive.

If your child has disabilities, by the way, nobody is suggesting he should have to change alone

Yes, I can read, thanks. What people are saying though, is tough, don't go swimming.