General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

This is actually one thing I quite like about Turkey - rapists usually don't live very long. Even those who make it to prison have to be isolated from other inmates. Especially paedophiles.

What about marital rape? (That became a crime in Germany only in 1997, and the fact that it is severely underreported of course skews the statistics.)

With rape, it is always difficult, because you don't know if the rate is so high because there are actually more rapists, or because more victims report to the police.

(Though I think Germany is worse than many other countries in real numbers, both because of marital rape having been legal for so long, and because prostitution is legal. Even if legal prostitution does not encourage men to see all women as objects, they'll still rape prostituted women in high numbers, and even though it was claimed legalisation would protect prostituted women, I do not think that the chances that a man who rapes a prostituted woman will ever see prison from the inside, are high.)

I just looked it up and saw that marital rape is a crime in Turkey since 2005. Prostitution is legal in Turkey, too (under Law 5237, Section 227) with some constraints - it's not legal to promote it or "encourage" it, etc.

I am happy to answer any questions on this subject but fear that we have effectively killed the thread.

• But you'd also have to be friends with males, and that'd be a serious downside. (I read one report of a retransitioned ex-transman who wrote that she was so annoyed by men's conversations that consisted mostly of showing off, that she finally decided to go back to being a woman.)" I'd love to read that article! I have such struggles with online dating because the men largely talk about themselves the whole time.

*PenguinVox" - that's interesting that it isn't doctors usually delivering these babies but you would still expect non typical genitalia to be noticed by the parents. Surely a mother (or father?) that's changing her (his?) child's nappies loads of times a day will notice if her "girl" has genitals that look different to any older female children (and her own surely)? How could you not notice something like this? And if it's a thing in the community surely you might just invite someone that's had a child go through the change to come round while you do a nappy change and comment on whether your kid looks like it might actually be one of these male children that haven't developed typical male genitals.

"Cote d'Azur" - all of the info I read on this just said Papua New Guinea and the Dominican Republic but when I went to fact check on wiki, wiki mentionned Turkey too - hence my question mark as I was writing quickly and a bit unsure of the situation. Still am, sorry to spread rumours!

I was reading transgender stories on a forum and have discovered there is such a thing as "species dysphoria"- where people feel trapped in the wrong body but actually feel they are members of another species. Fascinating! I think you can have dysphoria/dysmorphia?? relating to almost anything. Some people seem to identify as babies or young children too (like Stefonknee to be fair) and there was an interesting paper I came across about someone who had their gender identity recognised but not their age identity. I can only think that must be confusing for a patient when parts of their identity are recognised on the basis of their feelings but other parts are not?!

Bold fail in post above. First paragraph should read: But you'd also have to be friends with males, and that'd be a serious downside. (I read one report of a retransitioned ex-transman who wrote that she was so annoyed by men's conversations that consisted mostly of showing off, that she finally decided to go back to being a woman.)" I'd love to read that article! I have such struggles with online dating because the men largely talk about themselves the whole time.

Not sure why that didn't work. Trying to indicate the first bit is a quote!

I read about someone identifying as a lily of the valley plant once. A 'plantkin' I believe.

Singingsixpence yeah I wondered about the nappy changing thing too. But then maybe they don't "do nappy changing" like we do. I know my DM and MIL were both bemused by the way I would lie my babies down flat in front of me and meticulously clean them. I think they used to do a very quick change with the baby balanced on their knee so they probably never had a proper look at their babies so I can see how lots of mothers wouldn't. Also perhaps the mothers don't know what their own genitals look like anyway.
But yes it is strange to me that they don't take more of an interest in their baby's genitals since it's a known thing in their community. But I suppose it's just a very different culture. Perhaps they genuinely believe some people are born female and turn into men at puberty, in which case it's not really worth inspecting their baby's genitals closely because what will be, will be IYSWIM. But these questions weren't covered in the documentary so these are just my musings.

I'd love to read that article! I have such struggles with online dating because the men largely talk about themselves the whole time.

Found it:

mariacatt.com/ice-balls/

I actually find it rather convenient that men talk about themselves on a date - they tend to reveal a lot, and it makes my decision whether I want to see them again easier.
However ... I know that this is not how normal communication is supposed to work and I can imagine it is annoying for you - doubly so if they are condescending while they are doing it. It is probably just because I am so disillusioned already that I find it convenient.
(If I actually wanted to have a conversation instead of finding out in as little time as possible that this dude isn't Mr. Right, either, I'd probably view it differently)

"Ethno-grapher Gilbert Herdt pointed out the guevedoche were different and they knew it as they had compared their genitals with those of girls during public bathing. Villagers, who were familiar with the guevedoche over generations, accepted them as a 'third sex' category, sometimes referring to them as machi-embra (male-female).3 - See more at: newint.org/features/1998/04/05/trans/#sthash.DOnhp1xr.dpuf"

And all this has been known for forty years. But now, to fit in with the trans narrative, we have reporters misleading us that the mothers of these children are unable to identify female genitalia and don't know their babies are guevedoche.

Thanks so much "Vestal"! I really appreciate you finding that for me! Strangely I had just discovered her blog today but I have no idea how long it would have taken me to get to that post, or if I would have got to it at all. So much reading on the subject of transgender politics! And how interesting about the testosterone making her feel so confident and invincible and less worried about other peoples' feelings. Maybe men do have to try harder to care. But they still have to.

Does the fact men talk about themselves a lot not put you off in itself? I don't care how funny and interesting they are if they don't seem to be aware that I might just be funny and interesting too if they just took the time to find out. I feel like when someone hogs the conversation they are telling me "I am more important than you so I will talk and you will listen". Funnily enough I am struggling to find a man!

That's also interesting almond - and so annoying about how their case has been misrepresented. I'd have thought better of the BBC. But they do give their "girls" "female" names so the whole scenario is obviously pretty complex, to an outsider at least. They are raised as girls even if they know they will become boys?

Does the fact men talk about themselves a lot not put you off in itself? I don't care how funny and interesting they are if they don't seem to be aware that I might just be funny and interesting too if they just took the time to find out. I feel like when someone hogs the conversation they are telling me "I am more important than you so I will talk and you will listen". Funnily enough I am struggling to find a man!

I am a very quiet person, so there's no need to actively hog the conversation - just not asking me many questions will do.

Probably I would find it more off-putting if I tried to say something and was interrupted.

! And how interesting about the testosterone making her feel so confident and invincible and less worried about other peoples' feelings. Maybe men do have to try harder to care. But they still have to.

I wonder how much of this is placebo effect. I have relatively high testosterone for a woman, and I don't feel confident at all. Also, I worry a lot about other people's feelings.

Also, I think I read that the absolute amount of testosterone is not as important as the fluctuations for effects on personality, etc. I don't think we can compare the effect of testosterone on women with its effect on men - boys in puberty, perhaps, but grown men are used to the amount of testosterone in their blood.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Either men can behave like civilised human beings, in which case it is their duty to do so, or they cannot, in which case they belong to prison regardless of whether they had a choice in being criminals.

After all, bears who attack people are killed, too - we don't ask if it is their instinct to attack people. (And most environmentalists point out that bears and wolves are not instinctively compelled to attack people.) If aliens visited the earth, they'd probably think feminists are the environmentalist group who wants to protect men from extinction by pointing out that they could be socialized to not be as violent.

Here's an explanation of how the US Attorney General extrajudicially changed the meaning of 'sex', as defined in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, without any reference to either judge or to elected officials:

www.nationalreview.com/article/435182/north-carolina-bathroom-law-obama-justice-department-governor-pat-mccrory-lawsuit

mamamea I've just been reading about that. This is huge, isn't it? I don't understand why I'm not seeing it talked about more. The US government has stood up and said 'transmen are male and should always be treated as such' and 'transwomen are female and should always be treated as such'. It is going to become impossible to make any distinctions on the basis of biological sex.

I think this is the key moment now. If the U.S. government wins and gender identity is considered a component of sex (and does so without requiring any democratic process), that's it for women.

I made some tentative forays into gender critical arguments on a mainstream news site. Never experienced anything like it, and I'm pretty seasoned at internet debating on a wide range of topics. I'm not particularly combative and neither take things personally nor attack people personally.
The personal insults and slurs were incredible- the accusations of bigotry, nastiness, religious mania (?!) you name it. The tone was incredibly aggressive. And you know what? All of the people who attacked me were men. All of them. There is definitely something very dark and scary going on.
I don't want to deal with people like that. The best I can do is to try to convince women who've gone along with it, as I used to do . But really. Incredible.

Shins, me too. I've commented on a FB page or two and was gobsmacked by the name calling and sheer aggression - the upsetting thing was it was coming from women, too. Who have swallowed the trans narrative hook, line and sinker, the fools.

Sad, though not surprising to see women are complicit in believing/doing the things that will most harm them. You only have to look at the FGM thread to see that.

I've come to the conclusion that a goodly proportion of women are permanently suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, the way they will defer to the mighty male to their own detriment and can't even see what they're doing.

When I was a young woman I used to try to be sympathetic to these sort of women and try to understand how societal pressures made them act this way, Now, I think fuck 'em. If they can't stand up for themselves I am not going waste any more of my time propping them up.

the upsetting thing was it was coming from women, too. Who have swallowed the trans narrative hook, line and sinker, the fools.

Yes, it's always sad when it's women turning on other women, or unable to see the other woman's point of view. The kindest construction to put on it is that even these women know that the TW they are siding with are men, and than men harm women.

One of the lessons from second wave feminism is that women do what they need to to survive under patriarchy. Doesn't make it right, but it does go some way toward explaining their actions.

Get rid of patriarchy, and you get rid of those deeply conservative and damaging ideologies.

PalmerViolet: I see the "needs must" argument in certain situations. But I can't see it in relation to apparently intelligent young women falling for the transgender narrative. How will they not survive if they don't accept the transgender narrative?

Women are going to be harmed more by accepting it.

You are preaching to the choir Grimble. I am very well aware that even in the short term, women are harmed by trans ideology.

However, men are violent, agreeing with whatever they say is, for a lot of women a survival tactic.

NAMALT for those who are incapable of reading words and thinking

I know Palmer: I am just fucked off at the ignorance and, yes I will say it, sheer wimpiness of these women. It's not even an intelligent survival tactic. They are turkeys voting for Christmas. Surely they can't be that stupid? Or maybe they all simply fell asleep in biology at school.

As a second wave feminist I, along with thousands of other women fought to get women a place in the sun and now it seems we have to stand by while those spineless twerps try to drag us back into the shadows to placate the men in frocks.

It's no wonder we recently had a thread here "I'm giving up" that was filled with disillusioned feminists. What is the point of standing up for women when it is other women who snatch the rug out from under our and their feet?

I'm glad I'm old and probably won't be around to see the outcome of all this shit.

Time for and some sorrow drowning. and

And another thing…. . Where the fuck would they be if all us second wavers had used agreeing with men as a survival tactic?

I think a look at Ashe's experiments in conformity is useful, but yes, it's bloody frustrating. Too many women who are intelligent enough to know better doing actual harm to other women in 1000 little and large ways.

I'm not sure who are worse, libfems flag waving for men in frocks or women who "don't agree" with feminism and yet still reap the hard earned rewards of previous feminist activism.

Enjoy your wine, try not to get too sad or angry, there's still a good number of women out there who know the emperor is naked.

This might be relevant:

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/where-girl-meets-boy-why-are-child-referrals-to-londons-gender-identity-clinic-rising-so-sharply-a3245416.html

grimble and Palmer, I hear you. What's so depressing is that so many of the women doing this self-define as feminists. My niece is one of those who's swallowed it all hook, line and sinker.

She was the women's officer for a year as an undergrad - got called a Feminazi and all that shit, has had to put up with so much sexual harassment (and even what I'd quantify as low level sexual assault from male "friends"), is completely steeped in feminist theory as part of her everyday - and yet she cannot see through this bullshit.

Because they come at it from this starting point that transwomen are women, just that they happen to be women with penises. It's truly baffling. Last time I tried to talk about it with her she ended up crying, to my shock and distress, because it made her feel so bad for all her TW friends who would be cut to the quick by hearing me say they're not actually women.

I feel like crying too. I feel so betrayed by all these "feminists" who are putting male bodied people above female bodied people in the best handmaiden tradition.

In her case I think she's used to denying reality as a matter of course, having grown up with an emotionally abusive bully with a psychotic temper for a father. She can see that he's fucked up, that the family's fucked up, but she's still enmeshed, so she lives in a state of cognitive dissonance whereby she doesn't actually confront reality too hard.

I don't know how common that dynamic is though.