General Trans thread part 2

[ChiefClerkDrumknott]

Following on from this one General Trans thread
Because I'm not Elsa and can't let it go

Even a quick read of this thread suggest there is a lot of anger. ..
Some examples...

You don't need examples. I told you that we are angry

This "debate" between radical feminism and the trans community is being seen by mainstream as a particularly nasty fight with some issues, risks and fears (on both sides) being deliberately exaggerated.

And who do you think started the fight? I think you'll find some rad fem fears stem from being threatened with death and rape when they bring up objections to some of these 'issues' you glibly dismiss. Do you not think that's an understandable reaction? By the way, have you popped over to Twitter or Tumblr yet to plead with 'TERF' killers to be less aggressive?

As mentioned earlier, I may be completely wrong. Perhaps the best solution is to get even angrier, even more offensive and aggressive...

You know what, as I said we are angry and we are 'aggressive', if you term defending women's rights vocally and loudly and consistently aggressive

VestalVirgin

Those few lucky women with hyperandrogenism will keep up for a while I suspect, and it'll encourage more of them to compete, but I think that a lifetime of male-level testosterone, coupled with the fact that testosterone isn't the only physiological advantage in any case, will win out fairly quickly.

(Just to clarify, from brief research it seems that transwomen will be required to drop their testosterone levels to those roughly typical of hyperandrogenous women, or more than twice the highest level found in 'typical' women.)

(Just to clarify, from brief research it seems that transwomen will be required to drop their testosterone levels to those roughly typical of hyperandrogenous women, or more than twice the highest level found in 'typical' women.)

I read somewhere that they are allowed much, much higher testosterone levels than are ever found in the natural range of women's testosterone levels.

Either way, women aren't allowed to take artificial testosterone to make up for the disadvantage, and as you say, testosterone is not the only advantage.

Women with naturally high testosterone levels usually try to lower them because too much testosterone is not good for a woman's health.
(Not sure if high testosterone is a symptom or the cause of PCOS, and it might actually be both, hormones are a complicated issue. But since it is recommended for women who are on artificial testosterone to have their uterus removed, I do think there's a connection.)

*Perhaps there is a stadium of pregnancy where the foetal brain is imprinted with how its genitals are supposed to look like, and perhaps something can go wrong during that stage.

That would explain old-fashioned transsexuals with sex dysphoria.

It would not, however, explain the wave of men who claim that their penises are female.*

Before I came across this thread, I was under the impression that a 'transwoman' was exactly that - one of the apparently old fashioned transsexuals. I admit I've been rather horrified by some of those identifying as 'transwoman' since. I've seen a few twitter sites and some internet blogs. I just can't agree that a woman can have a penis, it seems total nonsense to me.

Sex dysphoria seems perhaps more appropriate and would go along way to making a distinction between those two groups. The only thing that I do wonder is often we can make a mistake of thinking that this is the end whereas perhaps it's just beginning. Is it really out of the question to think that gender will become so blurred in the next few decades that it will make todays extremes seem rather tame.. I don't know

(the first part of my post there was written by Vestal I intended it to be in bold )

Is it really out of the question to think that gender will become so blurred in the next few decades that it will make todays extremes seem rather tame.

We already have reached the point where men with full beards who wear suits (I think someone posted a pic here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2625375-Trans-people-to-be-JAILED-in-Alabama-town-if-they-go-to-the-wrong-toilet?pg=1) can declare themselves female and get access to women's toilets, women's changing rooms, and worse, women's hospital rooms, prison cells, etc.

I don't think it can become much worse. They'll probably make sure all healthcare for childbirth goes out of the window, as well as healthcare for women, and research for women's symptoms of heart attacks.

But they can achieve that with the laws already in place, that put gender identity above biological sex.

They might invent some dozens more sparkly genders, but that doesn't really have an effect on reality.

I think what I mean is that todays extremes like you've outlined Vestal will become positively normal compared to what may be to come. Maybe societies progress from one thing to the next. For example I was wondering that presumably sooner or later they'll be able to transplant gentalia or maybe grow it new, perhaps at some point sex really will become a choice I don't know.

All I suppose I'm saying is that often when we look at the present through the eyes of the past perhaps maybe we forget to look into the future too.

I certainly feel very uneasy about it all I'm just not convinced we've seen the last of it just yet

For example I was wondering that presumably sooner or later they'll be able to transplant gentalia or maybe grow it new, perhaps at some point sex really will become a choice I don't know.

I don't think that will happen for quite some time.

Also ... the trend seems to be going away from sex-change surgery, to "female" penises.

Males, transgender and otherwise, (with true transsexuals the rare exception) do not really want female bodies, as they would be oppressed then, in the same way that actual women are. Rape and forced birth, for example.

Though probably you are right and it will get worse. I suppose women will have to rent their bodies out for transwomen who want children, much in the same way that women now are forced into prostitution. It is already happening, of course, but it might come to first world countries.

I must read "The Handmaid's Tale" somewhen soon... that's about a society where fertile women are oppressed as "handmaidens", having to give birth to children that are then considered the legal offspring of other, infertile women.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Singingsixpence82 I saw a BBC documentary about the people you're talking about quite recently and they said that the babies in that area are almost always delivered at home by someone in the local community so it isn't doctors that are telling the parents that their babies are girls. I think in that area it must be a case of no penis = girl. If they were born here, I don't believe that a doctor would think they were girls. When my girls were born, 2 doctors (one in hospital and one at 6 week check) parted their labia to check they had female genitals. Unfortunately it seems that in some parts of the world, some people still think that no penis = girl. But from what the documentary said, it wasn't doctors saying that.

""guevedoces" (or the similar groups in Papua New Guinea and Turkey)?"

This is the first time I am hearing of this phenomenon, as someone who has lived in Turkey for most of her life and find it slightly worrying that such memes get spread without anyone questioning them.

The only few pages in Turkish that I can find on the internet that mention this syndrome talk about cases in the Dominican Republic, like this, this, this. One is dated September 2015 and is based on the BBC program on this subject (which was apparently again about the Dominican Republic) and the others are based on the same news story, about a study by a Cornell Uni doctor called Dr. Julianne Imperato-McGinley.

This page has that study in English and with pictures. It says that these people are male, with undescended testes. It says: "Lacking dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in utero, this boy’s external genitalia develop as female. However, internally the gonadal tissue is that of normal male and his karyotype is 46 XY (normal male). In utero, DHT is essential for the normal male development of the external genitalia. After complete maturation, DHT seems to have no important biological function. With the testosterone surge at puberty, the phenotype changes to male: the voice deepens, the testes descend, the phallus grows, erection and ejaculation begin, and a male psychosexual orientation develops. And for the rest of their lives, the guevedoces resemble the other Dominican men in all respects except:

• Beard growth is scanty.
• There is no hairline recession.
• None has acne.
• The prostate remains small."

Dr Imperato-McGinley has traced this mutation to a woman 7 generations in the past, who was called Altagracia Carrasco.

"Suddenly having to fit in the social category of male would have shocked me a lot ... likely more than the physical reality of having a penis. Sure, you get all the privilege, especially in Turkey, and no more fear of rape! Yay!"

Rape is not as common as you would think in Turkey - not because it is a feminist paradise, but because would-be rapists know that they will very probably be tracked down and put down like an animal by the victim's male relatives.

I can only see some captions, not a full study in English.

Female genitalia cannot become male genitalia.

I can see that the labia could house testicles as they descended, but the head of the clitoris is entirely separate from the urethra. They're not at the same location.

How could two separate structures in different places get together and become a penis?

Almondpudding yes that's what I mean. I don't think a doctor would say these babies are female. In the documentary I saw, the babies were delivered at home by someone in the community who presumably just sees no penis and doesn't examine the baby's genitals any further than that.

But the BBC documentary and BBC news article that I read gave the impression that the babies have female genitals at birth that change to male genitals at puberty. So annoying!

Yes, I meant part of the study is there in English.

Medical description here:

emedicine.medscape.com/article/924291-overview

The Wikipedia entry for it seems to depart quite extensively from the medical description. Most popular information now on sex seems to be changed to fit the trains narrative.

Trains?!

You know what I mean.

@CoteDAzur: This mutation seems to be pretty sweet for those men ... full hair, no acne and no prostate cancer.

One wonders why the regular male even has DHT if there's no downside to lacking it.

/offtopic

As for how common rape is in Turkey ... if it is only as common as it is in Germany, that's still too much. I didn't even assume it was as bad as in India.

"As for how common rape is in Turkey ... if it is only as common as it is in Germany, that's still too much"

Much less. Germany has the 43rd highest rape rate in the world (9.4/100K population) and Turkey is 99th (1.5/100K population).

I agree with you, though. Germany's rate is too much. Turkey's rate is too much. Even one rape is too much.

are those reported rape statistics? I could be wrong but I'd suspect Turkey to have a much higher rate of unreported rape than Germany

I travelled round Turkey 27 years ago. I was sexually assaulted, threatened and harrassed many times. It was endemic.

Unfortunately, foreigners get treated very differently than Turkish women there. In many parts, especially in rural areas, there is the idea that foreign women have loose morals and will sleep with anybody. The tide of Russian prostitues after Soviet Union's collapse didn't help, of course.

Claudia - Yes, statistics compiled from police records. They include not only reported repes but also those that later come to light because the rapist is killed either by the victim or by her male relatives.

This is actually one thing I quite like about Turkey - rapists usually don't live very long. Even those who make it to prison have to be isolated from other inmates. Especially paedophiles.

cote isn't there another side to the coin though? ie honour killing of victims?

There is a bit of that, too, mostly in rural South-Eastern areas. There are also raped women committing suicide (some after killing their rapists). Without looking into figures (if such figures exist), my understanding is that honour killings following rape mostly take the form of killing the rapist who has dishonoured one's sister/daughter/family rather than the victim.

I did say that Turkey's relatively low rape rate isn't because it is a feminist paradise. It is because wannabe rapists know the consequences - the victim is believed and it is not just the police who goes after him.