"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

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I was trying to find out what piv sex meant when I came across this blog.

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I was rather taken aback by its premise.

Other quotes include:
...intercourse is NEVER sex for women...
...intercourse is inherently harmful to women and intentionally so...

Is this a commonly held view point amongst feminists? Or just the extreme radical side.

I am not posting this to be goady, if anything quite the opposite.

Lass, you are very keen to tell feminists what they think! I for one have only not commented on the Scottish brothels thread because I hadn't noticed it. I think it's perfectly possible, isn't it? to be interested in both the academic and the practical side of an issue? And actually, there aren't mNy posters on this thread at all- just the usual navel gazing suspects who, to judge everyone by my standards, enjoy theoretical discussion and abstract ideas- and would bring the same approach to anything.

And I don't think liking cunnilingus is a requirement for being a feminist, is it? I hope not- I only like it occasionally if I'm in the right mood.

I am always interested when women say they say they aren't feminists. Which bits don't you agree with?

Oh dear Virgin Yes. I contributed . I think I even started a thread about it the last time this issue was raised in Scotland.

I'm surprised none of the real feminists on here who live in the UK appear to have no interest in responding to a live consultation being promulgated to change the law in part of the UK.

Why do you feel uncomfortable with that? Is your enjoyment of PiV so fragile that it cricitism will break it?

I don't know. I wouldn't say it's fragile - mind you, it might have degraded a bit during its lengthy retirement! I'll find out next time I need it

I'm not particularly reassured by your agreement, FW. I agree, though, that the physical & emotional aspects of sex can't be usefully separated - and would include social aspects with that, too. Hence this discussion, I guess.

I know we swim in a murky sea of patriarchal porn, VV, but am quite fond of imagining 'feminist utopia' as it guides me on which battles to pick. I would say that at least one such utopia has been proposed here: it made PIV illegal and everyone had hand & mouth sex instead of employing both sets of genitals at once. That's a very, very long way from my ideal.

Lass, as that thread is being trolled by a PBP, you have no idea if posters have responded to the consultation but not the thread.

In any event, why not say "hey, could you all take a look at this thread, it's important" ?

Oh, and Lass, if you are so worried about prostitution, maybe you should give witchwind another chance. Seems this vile extremist is also opposed to prostitution: witchwind.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/cutting-through-the-throes-of-intersectionality-part-ii-on-the-structure-of-mens-interlocking-chains/

So, she actually cares about you, unlike the wishy-washy lazy feminists on here!

.I am not from Scotland, cannot influence Scottish politics, and therefore, it doesn't really matter what I think.

If you are in the UK what you think about this is as relevant as what I think. I don't see any requirement that one must be in Scotland to respond to this consultation. If the law changed in Scotland that will have an effect on the rest of the UK. Yes, you did comment on the thread. I would encourage you to respond to the consultation too.

Lass, I've responded to every survey and petition request regarding 'legalised prostitution'. I think that counts as contributing. Since I've formed clear views on the matter, I feel there's not much to be gained by discussing it over & over again with people who have also formed clear views.

she actually cares about you, unlike the wishy-washy lazy feminists on here!

"I'm surprised none of the real feminists on here who live in the UK appear to have no interest in responding to a live consultation being promulgated to change the law in part of the UK."

What's a "real feminist"? I couldn't find the tread you are talking about, by the way, but I have been very vocal in the past on the subject of prostitution, so I feel pretty comfortable in the face of this particulR bit of whataboutery.

Here's the consultation thread BR:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2519183-proposed-legislation-in-scotland-licensed-saunas-and-legalised-prostitution

Garlick your post at 18.10 makes perfect sense to me. Particularly this.

My discomfort with today's posts here, as with the Dworkin excerpt, is that a definitive view seems to be emerging - clitoral-only orgasms are always best; PIV is invasion; women are always 'done to' in sex - that's just as unhelpful as the view being queried.

I'm really not sure why a quote from Dworkin should be presented as any more persuasive than what you have said.

What's the alternative to those two?

In Garlic Utopia (which probably smells a bit) every sexual encounter is a meeting of equals, sharing responsibility for any risk and equally interested in their own & one another's enjoyment. Long-term sexual relationships change as the participants, and their relationship dynamics, change.

Given that this does actually happen quite a lot, I'm loath to write off all PIV as abusive or, at best, subject to repressed feelings of victimisation. It's an insult to all the happy folks engaging in mutually beneficial PIV!

But, clearly, the generalised cultural message is still that men 'do it to' women. And women are - overall and in popular culture - supposed to be sluts or gatekeepers or both at once, shouldering the responsibility for men's sexual selfishness as well as all the risks.

This is of course fundamental & needs discussing, possibly for ever. While throwing out the bathwater of cultural mores, tropes and moral prisons, I'd prefer not to throw out the baby of equal & enjoyable relationships!

The writer is a moron, who thinks that sex for anybody not a virgin is painful, for reasons of, and I quote, STDs, swelling, bruising, urinary and vaginal infections.....god, somebody save me from these ....

Look, sex is not painful unless you are a virgin - the reason why sex is painful the first time is because our predecessors didn't want men just overpowering women and women going "ok, what the hell" - evolution favoured women who felt pain during sex (at least the first time) so that they could be much more picky about their sexual partners, just to make sure that they got the right one.

Non-consensual sex is wrong for other reasons, not just because of any associated genital pain. And you should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating a dumb post, and the author of the post should be five times as ashamed for perpetuating a position that they themselves know is erroneous. Sex isn't painful, or harmful to anybody. And if you want to tally up pain levels, childbirth is a hundred times more painful than first sex, so...I guess we should blame children, or nature for being patriarchal and repressive and sexist too.

"The old fashioned solution is no sex outside marriage. The current position seems to be women bear the brunt of the risk and stigma. What's the alternative to those two?"

1. Having no sex or just masturbating yourself which in fact is the choice of many more women than most realise.

1. Doing all the sexual things there are except the penetration and yes lots of people do that too but I won't be writing on here about the huge complexity of sexual things many of us do as I keep that private.

1. Sex with other women.

YY to your reinforced point, Buffy, that "sex" is supposed to mean PIV and the other stuff isn't proper sex.

It's bizarre. Highly convenient for men people who didn't really cheat as they didn't have "sex", I notice. But the underlying cultural reason's got to be the tradition of ownership - any PIV might lead to pregnancy and the body of a man's wife was his vehicle for reproduction. So he owned the rights to ejaculate in her body.

Considering the short space of time we've been free of those conditions, it's inevitable that they still underlie our thoughts & expectations. Generally speaking.

Vestal Sorry, derail but that link you referred me to contains statements such as

– ^Domestic servants: Same mechanism as for prostituted women except that their acquisition will be reserved to wealthier men who can afford to have slaves and/or servants in his domain. They act as surrogate inferior wives, wet nurses, cooks, cleaners, nannies, completing work that would otherwise be reserved for the married woman. The pater familias usually has right of rape over the domestic servants.
Then of course there are all those wild women who have bravely or luckily escaped male bondage: spinsters, lesbians, witches, hags, and other such revolting women that men have hunted down with all their might^ and

^Sub-categories of married women:
Married women are typically divided and isolated from other married women, especially from women belonging to other camps of male owners, since their interactions will mostly be limited to people authorised by her owner^

Is she talking about Afghanistan under the Taliban ?

Good point re offspring ownership, Garlick.

Arrow, I find sex painful, you've said twice in your post that it isn't, but you can't really speak for everyone can you.
There are many conditions/situations that can make piv painful.

I get a uti almost every time i have sex

Wrt painful sex - one thing that's made me very angry since I first heard of it in my twenties is those implements women are supposed to use to stretch their vaginas! Honestly, if you're not built for PIV then you aren't built for it (or should find a nice man who fits.) Not set aside half an hour twice a day to insert glass or silicone rods in yourself to become more accommodating!

Yes, there's a lot of reasons why PIV might become painful - PID to name one very common reason, and childbirth for another. In well-balanced relationships, people find ways round this. They don't shove women full of painkillers so they can shove them full of dick.

... I'm getting cross with the medical establishment now

Lass/Garllck - I agree with your last few posts.

Buffy - I get where you are coming from in your 19.01 post. I am not sure that PIV is a 'goal' in most relationships although I accept it might be portrayed that way in popular culture. As DeoGratis put it there are many other things people do and they are private and I dont discuss that on the internet either.

However, what I will say is that for many men PIV is nice enough but not a goal. What men in a mutual relationship want is their female partner to enjoy sex as much as they do and that is very much a 'goal'. What women forget is a man isn't psychic and if say PIV is nice enough but not your 'thing' then you talk about it and tell him what your 'thing' is. In many cases men will say PIV is not their 'thing' either. Then bingo both people are doing something other than PIV or maybe a bit of PIV plus something else.

There seems to be a perception on the thread that PIV is all men want and women should put up with it. It really really isn't true or necessary.

Is she talking about Afghanistan under the Taliban ?

I don't know - I just searched the blog for her stance on prostitution. Maybe do some more extensive reading?

In Garlic Utopia (which probably smells a bit) every sexual encounter is a meeting of equals, sharing responsibility for any risk and equally interested in their own & one another's enjoyment. Long-term sexual relationships change as the participants, and their relationship dynamics, change.

Sounds nice. How do you propose to bring this about? See, what I wrote about outlawing PiV was not a description of utopia, but a thought experiment on how to deal with the shittyness of actual people in real life.

@Passive: You get an UTI every time you have PiV or every time you engage in any sexual activity, including masturbation?

The latter would be rather bleak.

Sorry Lass, I wasn't aware that, once we'd responded to the consultation we had to sign up to the thread to say we had just to be harangued by a single issue poster who likes using women as masturbatory aids.

Will rectify that immediately.