"Intercourse/PIV is always rape, plain and simple."

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I was trying to find out what piv sex meant when I came across this blog.

witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

I was rather taken aback by its premise.

Other quotes include:
...intercourse is NEVER sex for women...
...intercourse is inherently harmful to women and intentionally so...

Is this a commonly held view point amongst feminists? Or just the extreme radical side.

I am not posting this to be goady, if anything quite the opposite.

You really have to wonder at the biological knowledge (or lack of it) of a poster who says sex is not painful unless you are a virgin.

It undermines the logic of anything else that poster has to say on the subject.

@vestal, almost every time i have PIV, i don't masturbate much as i find clitoral stimulation too intense, too quick, too narrow, like a pin prick, body spasms like being given an electric shock and everything now too numb or too sensitive to do anything else.
And i am far too lazy to faff around with a dildo for 30mins to and hour

Yes, Grimble!

Sounds nice. How do you propose to bring this about?

My 60-year-old, second-generation self thinks it should be enough to fill young women and men with joyous and accurate information, usher them forth to experiment - enthusiastically & respectfully! - and instruct them not to settle for anything less than what makes them feel fabulous.

That self did a fine job on herself, but badly underestimated the oncoming backlash. Rapey porn everywhere you look, "powerful women" being lauded for art that makes women into stereotypical sex objects, and regressive 'morals' leading to the sex ed described upthread.

But things have changed for the better too, you know. It's ages since I heard women exchanging black humour about marital sex. They can just bloody leave now, instead of being trapped in "get it over with" twice a week.

... I think men's (generalised, stereotyped, media-guided) comprehension, lagging behind women's as it's always done, has attempted a reverse takeover. I'm sad to observe that it's achieving a measure of success. But I also think there are more men & women now who do get it, and do it right for them personally.

It's like some apocalyptic battle being waged on YouPorn

look, sex is not painful

Well thats me told

PIV sex can be painful for a variety of reasons

Most women are not hurt during consensual sex, however and plenty are quite keen on it and obviously in evolutionary terms it's pretty easy to understand what that's the way we do it as it leads to more babies than if he stuck it in your ear and if you and he didn't orgasm or enjoy it we'd have died out.

However I agree with freew that plenty of men and women do get it right in the West at least and discuss things and explain what they want and what they want to give. There is much to be hopeful about.

There is a huge amount of variety of sexual information out there on the internet which is not just PIV sex so you could argue men and women these days are more likely to go in for the variety than just the "traditional" as it were. There are also lots of ways to have sexual relationships with penetration if you don't want that although everyone should make these things clear before they get deeply into a relationship with anyone otherwise it's unfair.

Another one who suffers UTIs often as a result of PIV.

I know my mum did too. So I always thought that was normal

No, really not normal :( Assuming you've gone over the hygiene & positional considerations and tried going for a pee beforehand - you might be physically mismatched or basically cut out for alternative sex.
I'm sorry you've been suffering ... and your mum and previous posters.

Pfft, it's okay. I live you too

Agree with you about everything you posted. It's worrying.

Another one who suffers UTIs often as a result of PIV.I know my mum did too. So I always thought that was normal

And you still didn't decide it was not worth it?

Sometimes I feel I might be asexual (or demisexual, or whatever), if I look at the things other people are willing to go through for the sake of sex.
I mean, sex feels nice, but does it feel good enough to make up for a week of painful UTI?

Okay, coming from someone who eats chocolate daily and has, apparently, subconsciously decided that that is worth all potentially painful dentist treatments in the future, not to mention diabetes, etc, that may seem a bit bigoted, but ... I have not yet had something more painful than my wisdom teeth removed (which wasn't even caused by chocolate), and I think a UTI that happens immediately after sex is somewhat ... closer to home, so to speak.

slugseatlettuce I think we ended up in a patriarchy because we were outnumbered, due to the childbirth issue. If you think outside the box, it becomes clear that monarchy, and thus a line of succession, is not necessary. Also, if things are decided by a council of elders, then women are more reliable, as women who are old enough to be wise are past menopause, and live rather longer than men.

Or, another theory: We all ended up in a patriarchy because patriarchies produce more children per woman than societies wherein it is women's choice to become pregnant or not. Patriarchies thus conquer other countries to make place for their expanding population, and therefore have over the time killed off all matriarchies, that were less overpopulated and thus less warlike, and therefore had no weapons or army.

@Passive: Oh, poor you, that sucks!

Though you must have strange anatomy. My lady parts are not nearly as sensitive.

I'm not sure how this could be achieved but it would be a good thing if:

a) older women like Garlick could talk frankly to teenage and young men about real sex that women enjoy;

b) younger women could be given confidence/courage to talk to their young male partners about what they want and don't want.

I say this because if women don't do this then young men will tend to form ideas from but their mates and the internet.

No, I persevered!

Went on for 20 odd years, with multiple partners. Couple of times i had infections track back to my kidneys

Often got thrush from the resultant antibiotics; which then gave me cystitis...Spent most of my 20s and 30s in that cycle. Had lots of investigations, xrayz etc...interstitial

Having kids 90% resolved the problem for me

Bonkers, now i think of it

@Free: Is that your idea on how to achieve Garlick's utopia? If so, how do you propose we fix rape?

@Shortcut: Wow. I sometimes feel like a lazy, egoistic asshole, but I must say, I am also quite glad that I have always had the hedonistic attitude of "If it feels good, do it. If it is in any way unpleasant, don't do it. If it has a potential to have unpleasant consequences, weigh the positive against the negatives, and only do it is it is worth it." Prevented me from starting to smoke, amongst other things.

I liked the recent, sadly tentative, initiatives to encourage men to intervene if women are being harassed or assaulted. It'd clearly be wise to encourage women as well. These initiatives have included advice not to be passive when rapey jokes & comments are made, not to let victim-blaming-in-advance go unchallenged, and strong anti victim blaming messages.

But, my god, we need a great deal more of it. I don't feel we're likely to get it under current circs. So I have to hope that cultural change and social media will help improve the power balance.

I think it is a bit too optimistic to hope to change society simply by telling people that bad things are bad and that they should intervene if they see them happen. I kind of think people know that already and are deciding that they want things to stay the way they are.

I hope I am wrong and just too pessimistic. :(

By the way, the reason why women are not encouraged to intervene if other women are being assaulted is likely because that would put them in harm's way, too, and it is assumed they wouldn't want to risk that.

Garlick I saw an article about schools having such a scheme, great idea to involve boys in change from a young age.
I felt silly posting about the pain thing earlier, but just felt bothered by the statements made by the pp. I'm glad I did know as it's been very positive hearing other's stories (though I'm sorry for the difficulties you've had).

VV - not sure its a utopia I'm aiming for. Just some practical stuff we could do. I wonder if something like a really well made TV programme would be the right way - a series say aimed at young people with real people talking frankly. Young men in my generation (I'm almost as old as Garlick) used to be avid but secretive Cosmopolitan readers. I found it quite a revelation although I only used to read it in the dentists on the odd occasion obviously. We probably need a modern internet version of that phenomenon.

I don't really want to talk about rape on this thread again. How we prevent rape is a whole other big thread and I don't have any instant answers. It will take a long time and I don't think sadly we can completely prevent it any more than we can completely prevent murder.

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I get UTIs after sex as well; the advice I got from my doctor was to go to the bathroom immediately after and pee, which worked usually.

Cervical pain at certain times of the month - yes; paradoxically if I remember correctly in the luteal phase for me, which was a problem as I used the sympto-thermal method of family planning. These days, I would be very wary of having sex if a baby hadn't been discussed as a possible outcome, or no condom was involved.

Consent- I think the idea of exploring and expanding this explicitly is worthwhile. I am trying to teach both DC the concept of bodily autonomy and that hugs (age appropriate) both parties need to want. Separated H used to be bad for demanding hugs and kisses from the DC (and me) so some re-education has gone on there. You can't touch someone if they don't want to be touched.

Not had time to follow the thread - but I don't share the view that violent crime is always going to exist. I am sorry but I will talk about rape again on this thread - because what people understand by rape and the acceptable boundaries around sexual practice and consent can be and have been (over time and in different countries and contexts) redrawn; there is nothing fixed or innate about rape. There is nothing fixed or innate about murder - you have times and places with low or negligible homicide rates through to times and places of massacre. Nobody sits and goes massacres are just inevitable. There is a line drawn somewhere - and surely it is no murder/no rape is acceptable. If you don't think that is achievable, it is like shrugging and going well, it is always going to happen to someone. Really?

Stops women shagging someone else in the few days afterwards and therefore casting doubt on cave-paternity?

I've just read Witchwind's series on intersectionality, where the above quotes about servants & wives originated. She's right. It's an exploration or exposition of the basic premises of radical feminism. The whole point of feminism is to understand that we live with patriarchy, see how it works - and to change things so that (eventually) women and men are properly free with equally balanced powers.

Ideas on how those changes might be effected vary, just as they do within any reform movement.

I decided to give her pages on love & heterosexuality a miss, as we're clearly coming from different places on that.