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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Another trans woman kills herself in a male prison. Let's look at the real statistics.

96 replies

Elendon · 01/12/2015 19:30

The statistics

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/22/prison-suicide-rate-82-deaths

I think this is all we need to know. Why aren't all the other suicides a matter of news headlines?

OP posts:
howtorebuild · 01/12/2015 19:44

The news articles are very limited in the information shared. This individual who took their own life, was keen on Hitler and Shipman, they wanted was to kill their solicitor, an ex partner and other prisoners. Then recently changed gender before they took their own life.

kua · 01/12/2015 19:56

Unfortunately, Elendon the other prisoners are not deemed "exciting/newsworthy"enough to be reported on.

Going on recent reports you would believe that only Transwonen are of any worth.

I genuinely can not remember reading any reports of the others that have taken their lives this year.

HermioneWeasley · 01/12/2015 20:02

This is going to be the excuse needed to put males in female prisons as a matter of policy/default.

Makes me so angry - nobody will ask women what they think of this, just a subset of men.

I don't know any women in real life who think that biological males should be in sex segregated spaces, but we just get trampled over.

ottothedog · 01/12/2015 20:04

Lets look at the most recent case
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-34972221

Attempted murder - twice in prison setting!
Life term sentence
Sudden desire to live life 'as a woman'
Wonder why?

TheTigerIsOut · 01/12/2015 20:05

This is the second time I read about a transgender woman killing herself in prison. The first thought on both ocassions have been "these poor women, they may have felt really terrified at being there" just to later be shocked at the seriousness of their crimes. Surely, neither of them were frail vulnerable people, this last one attempted 2 kill two people while she was already in prison for attempted murder!

HermioneWeasley · 01/12/2015 20:09

Yes, latest individual was hardly vulnerable! And yet people who haven't thought about this for a nanosecond want to put violent criminals with male build and male strength in with women.

CocoChanel22 · 01/12/2015 20:15

Easy...

Women - woman's prison
Men- men's prison

Until there are either prisons for transgender or wings from current prisons for transgender inmates then criminals should go to the prison for whichever genitalia they have. Putting a transgender man into a woman's prison is bloody rediculous ...IMO, obviously.

ottothedog · 01/12/2015 20:15

Eagerly awaiting owen jones jumping to defend the rights of 'lifer-sudden -conversion-to-trans-once-he-realises-the-abuse-opportunities' transwomen

SomeDyke · 01/12/2015 20:25

What would a SANE policy towards trans prisoners look like? I suggest:

  1. Remember why members of the female sex are housed separately to members of the male sex.
  2. Acknowledge that many classes of prisoners are at risk from violence and/or bullying from other prisoners based on their sexual orientation/actual crime/race/religion/gang membership/Gender identity etc. Also acknowledge that some classes of prisoners are at risk of self-harm if jailed. Deal with protecting vulnerable prisoners.

Unfortunately a sane policy ISN'T possible whilst legally 'gender identity' is recognized as superseding actual biology, whilst subjective gender feels and desire right to be housed with those who supposedly share your gender feels is enshrined in law.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 01/12/2015 20:38

Just seen this on the news. Extraordinary how it's presented as a poor little woman in with the scary men, as if these are not themselves men who have committed extremely violent crimes against women.

LauraMipsum · 01/12/2015 20:46

"hardly vulnerable"

This person was at HMP Frankland and then at Rampton, which tells you most of what you need to know.

You don't get to go there unless you are extremely vulnerable.

Being vulnerable and being dangerous are not mutually exclusive.

He was at Woodhill, a men's prison, and it seems exceptionally unlikely that even if he was beginning to look at transition that he would have actually gone to a women's prison because of his background - the women's estate just wouldn't have been able to manage him.

kua Private Eye have covered quite a lot.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 01/12/2015 23:12

The point everyone has to remember is that this person did not ask or request to be placed in the female estate

Please keep that in the back of your mind as this becomes a huge politicised mess over the next few days.

TinselSparkle · 02/12/2015 00:13

Wrote a reply and then it got lost somewhere
:-( here goes again...

SomeDyke: why are women housed separately to men? I can only think of reasons that might have been valid in the past, but aren't any more.

It seems to me that the solution is to put all the sexual predators in solitary confinement, and then house everyone else together.

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:25

Really you can only think of reasons why female and male prisoners are segregated that are invalid now?

Clearly male violence against women and in particular sexual violence has been eliminated then in never never land?

Oh goody, no need for feminism any more.

TinselSparkle · 02/12/2015 00:32

It was a genuine question!

You seem to give two (linked) answers:

Male violence against women: saying this means that you should have separate prisons for men and women is like saying the fact that racist attacks happen means you should have racially segregated prisons isn't it?

Sexual violence: I agree that there is a reason for separating people who are sexually violent from the rest of the population. But that doesn't mean that there's no reason to house everyone else together.

almondpudding · 02/12/2015 00:37

Is this a joke?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 02/12/2015 00:39

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525441/Transgender-murderer-Paris-Green-moved-womens-prison-sex-inmates.html
How do you predict in advance which males are sexually violent?

Also, if you're raped in prison, how do you prove it? Who do you talk to? How do you feel safe having to live in that space afterwards?
You can't just house women along with a load of Schroedinger's Rapists.

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:39

More seriously, a high proportion of female prisoners have been victims of male abuse. Why should they be vulnerable to that 24 hrs a day?

Also you can segregate those convicted of sexual crimes separately. It's not going to stop those not convicted of sexual crimes of committing sexual abuse against female prisoners though. Sexual predators don't come with a sign on their head. Neither is it going to stop violent men from carrying on their violence against female prisoners. Again why should they be vulnerable to that 24 hrs a day?

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:43

"Male violence against women: saying this means that you should have separate prisons for men and women is like saying the fact that racist attacks happen means you should have racially segregated prisons isn't it?" No it isn't. It is about protecting the more vulnerable of our population from the more violent.

Or do you not think that women are more vulnerable to male violence, when housed 24 hrs a day with them without any choice, given the differences in biology and social conditioning between the two sexes?

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:45

And also given the history of male violence being used as a tool to suppress and oppress women?

And that's before we get on to the different needs of male and female prisoners.

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:48

There is a reason trans women want access to female prisons. Because they are less violent. How is it ever going to benefit women prisoners for the more violent half of the population to be introduced into their estate?

TinselSparkle · 02/12/2015 00:50

Superloud: in the daily mail article, there is no suggestion of rape - they just say there was sex. I know it could be daily mail being rubbish, but if it genuinely was consensual sex - would that be so bad? I may have watched a bit too much OITNB but I assume some sort of sex happens in any prison without trans people involved.

In response to your other questions- don't those go for everyday life as well? Women would be subject to that when they are released from prison so why should inside prison be different?

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:51

The Corston Report highlights a lot of the issues.

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 00:57

"Women would be subject to that when they are released from prison so why should inside prison be different?" Because they would be locked up with men. Unable to escape.

But women are vulnerable to men outside prison as well. 85000 rapes a year testify to that. 140 women killed last year at the hands of men. 1 in 4 women experienced DV. The constant warnings to watch what we drink, where we go, who we go home with etc etc shows exactly how vulnerable we are to male violence.

I'm sorry but I'm getting the feeling I'm being gas lighted here.

TinselSparkle · 02/12/2015 01:02

"How is it ever going to benefit women prisoners for the more violent half of the population to be introduced into their estate?"
Presumably you agree with single sex schools then scallops?