Another trans woman kills herself in a male prison. Let's look at the real statistics.

[Elendon]

The statistics

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/22/prison-suicide-rate-82-deaths

I think this is all we need to know. Why aren't all the other suicides a matter of news headlines?

Okay, honest question here, because I don't know the answer to this locker-room/changing room/hospital/prison question from a straight womans point of view.

Personally, as a lesbian, I've not seen an actual naked adult male apart from in theatrical performances. (Oh, what a sheltered life I've led!). Okay, probably some male strippers in gay pubs, but I either wasn't looking, or was shooing them off cos they got confused and were trying to lick my hairy, DM-clad leg. I probably wouldn't be best pleased with being observed whilst naked by a gay man, cos although not sexually interested, I might expect a sort of "O, aren't naked lesbians odd!" curiosity effect. Nor would I be happy about being naked in front of some of my female friends. But I am (reasonably) happy about being naked (or at least hiding behind the towel) with total strangers in a womens changing room. Why is that? I guess because we ARE strangers, and we are ALL women with the same basic bodies. I DON'T go looking at other women, even though I find the sight of a naked woman attractive, because it would be RUDE, because we are all equally vulnerable and naked. We are the same in our nakedness, our basic femaleness. And that SAFETY (or at least sense of mutual and shared equal vulnerability) would be destroyed if a male was in the room (even the NICEST gay man I know).

Anyway, I guess my actual question was how to straight women feel about being naked in front of lesbians? Even rude ones who might be thinking naughty thoughts at the sight of your gorgeousness............ :-)

Are these lesbians strangers or friends?

It's much easier I think getting your bits out in front of strangers. I found breastfeeding in public much easier than in front of friends and family for instance (although I got over that, and so did my FIL - although I'm sure the first few conversations while feeding between us took deep breaths on both sides)

Personally, undressing in front of a woman is always easier whether you know her or not - we all have the same bits, and even if sexually attracted, I feel I can trust a woman to be nice about it.

Having said that, I've showered in communal showers at a biker rally, and both men and women were present (thanks for inviting your boyfriend in strange lady) and TBH, I think in a purposeful situation it's fine as long as no-one is a jerk.

I wouldnt mind being naked in front of lesbians

I think its probablybecause im not worried about being pestered, threatened or hurt

( i doubt i would be pestered )

I just wrote a long post and the Internet ate it.
I have never considered the rude thoughts of women (apart from when discussing finding breasts attractive with a lesbian colleague - I thought it was learned behaviour she felt it was inate)

I feel safe in the company of women, uninterested really. I know some will judge, especially wrt body hair, but I'm not affected by that.

However if I'm sharing a space with men then I'm on alert, not worried exactly but fight or flight ready to kick in. Exhausting.

Its not a fear of being found attractive though, is it

It's a fear of power, dizrespect, objectification...

I know one transwoman, whose partner is a transman. Bet you can guess who gets the wifework...

Heads she loses, tails you win. If she does the wife-work, she's performing a 1950s stereotyped femininity because she's an autogynephile fetishising women's oppression. If her partner does, it's because she's actually a bloke and he's been socialised to do the wife-work.

Gender critical feminism is important but that doesn't strike me as one of the better arguments.

Oooooor....
They could share it evenly

No, pregnant women are not admitted to Healthcare Units unless they are medically or mentally unwell. They are housed on the wings with everyone else. It is quite a head fuck the first time a pregnant prisoner with a huge belly walks past you...

I am firmly against non transitioned trains women being placed in female prisons. The female inmates are exceedingly vulnerable. www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/28/closure-of-holloway-womens-prison-revolution has a really clearly written summary of the issues with the women's prison estate and the need to implement the Corston report.

tinsel really, do fuck off. What a frankly dangerous approach, of let's hOuse male and female prisoners together, what's the worst that might happen, of they might have sex, tee hee, like OITNB. No, there would be horrific assaults on women, multiple violent rapes, coercive sex, even murders. I am no exaggerating or scaremongering. I am frankly frightened when in the male prison I work in. I feel intensely vulnerable and aware of how small and vulnerable and female I am. The rates of violent assaults is not a joke, nor are the rates of bullying and minor violence. The use of spice is really adding to the risks. So there is not a prison governor in the land who would even consider your suggestion.

somedyke lesbians in prison is an interesting one - there do seem to be higher numbers of gay women in prison, inmates and officers. Very very different to OITNB. Which is of course fiction. Whether other women feel uncomfortable naked in front of lesbian inmates varies a lot - really depends on the individual woman and is she is being a dick and ogling/leering in a manner that makes others uncomfortable or if she just gets on with having a shower and/or a chat and a joke like everyone else. Lesbians are not immune from being bad people. Oddly I'm not aware of high rates of bullying gay inmates in the female prisons, unlike in male prisons.

Sorry this post came out a lot more random than expected...

"...1950s sterotyped femininity..."

Wifework doesnt mean doing housework in a pinny, its more the stuff men 'dont think of' when they have a wife to do it for them

SomeDyke I couldn't care less about being naked in front of my lesbian friends, or indeed lesbian strangers who I don't know are lesbians (in gym changing room, for eg).

I cared rather a lot when the DHL man peered through my window earlier when I was starkers on my way to the shower though. And then I had to answer the door to get my parcel.

Somedyke, it doesn't bother me - as others have said, it's about commonality not lack of attraction.

Me neither. And I have never given it a second thought whether women I am undressing with might be lesbians. But I wouldn't want to undress in front of gay male friends or strangers. I would still feel exposed and vulnerable. It's not that simple. As OneMore said, I don't think it's about attraction.

I agree. I'm 5 foot tall (although rather large with it) - and everyone is bigger than me, but there's a material difference between the solidity of a 5'6 woman and a 6' man that makes a huge difference when it comes to how vulnerable you feel around someone.

Anyway, I guess my actual question was how to straight women feel about being naked in front of lesbians? Even rude ones who might be thinking naughty thoughts at the sight of your gorgeousness

Can't say it's ever bothered me, I don't see other women as risky and I've never been made uncomfortable by one.

Also most if not all women have experience of unwanted attention and sexual harassment from unknown men but not from unknown women (irrespective of their sexuality )

yep i have never had a woman sat across from me and touch my boob. (i have had a man do it)

Male prisoners in male prisons kill themselves (or try to) every day, it's sadly viewed as commonplace within the prison service and not shocking. Biological women also have horrendous rates of self harm in custody. So it's not particularly surprising that a trans person should commit suicide.

how do straight women feel about being naked in front of lesbians?

Naked? Mortified. But I am a prude and feel mortified in front of straight women, I do the awkward change behind a towel at a swimming pool.

But just getting changed no problem. It's no different for me.

But if there is a man around I will not get changed. It doesn't matter if he's flamboyantly gay. I just won't.

If women felt comfortable around men who weren't attracted to them, there could be a case for allowing 80 something women to change in front of 20 something men.

And that would be ludicrous.

It's not about attraction because rape isn't about sex, catcalls aren't about sex, groping isn't about sex. Those things are all about power.

Can't say it's ever bothered me, I don't see other women as risky and I've never been made uncomfortable by one.

This.

@OneMore: Well, actually not, because some of those 20 something men could have a fetish for older women. You're never safe.

And yes, of course men will rape old women. Because they are easy victims.

I admit that I consider joining Femen when I turn 80. By then, showing my naked breasts to the public will be more of a politically efficient form of protest than now.

Nobody gives a toss about gay women seeing them naked, why would they.

But I don't want a gay man to see me naked.

It's nothing to do with attraction.

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/03/transgender-woman-who-was-sent-to-male-prison-is-freed

Next time I get completely and utterly cunted I'll be sure and say it's my way of dealing with prejudice.

I actually feel sorry for Tara - I don't think she can be a happy person. But the sycophantic reporting of her case is really wearing thin now.

I'll be interesting to see what her customers on Punternet have to say about how she has mended her ways.

Leaving aside the OBVIOUS risks of letting people who are very visibly not female into a changing room (hint: I'm NOT implying they are necessarily the risk personally), what I think I was aiming at was the fact that I feel relatively comfortable being vulnerable and naked amongst other women because they are the SAME as me. Also naked, also female, the SAME physically/biologically, LIKE me. Some may be stronger than others, some may have had many children, some none, some may have breast implants and breast-feed in public, some may be very flat-chested, ALL varieties and shapes and colours of female.

But a transwoman, no matter how successful the surgery and hormones, isn't LIKE me physically. Hence my comfort in our common vulnerability would be gone.

Revolting article from the guardian - no mention of the people Tara assaulted