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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Another trans woman kills herself in a male prison. Let's look at the real statistics.

96 replies

Elendon · 01/12/2015 19:30

The statistics

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/22/prison-suicide-rate-82-deaths

I think this is all we need to know. Why aren't all the other suicides a matter of news headlines?

OP posts:
TinselSparkle · 02/12/2015 01:04

I need to sleep now but I will read the Corston report tomorrow.

scallopsrgreat · 02/12/2015 01:04

Stop gaslighting. We aren't talking secondary school. We are talking being locked up with violent men 24 hrs a day.

TheEmperorIsNaked · 02/12/2015 01:13

Schools are not full of criminals and children don't stay there 24 hours a day for months/years at a time.

almondpudding · 02/12/2015 01:24

I agree that this is highlighting. UN reports and resolutions highlight the unique vulnerabilities that women face in prison.

almondpudding · 02/12/2015 01:25

Gas lighting, sorry - autocorrect.

Alisvolatpropiis · 02/12/2015 01:34

I have been wondering why the suicides of MTT people in prison garner more press attention than the suicides of other inmates for a while now.

Transactivists shout loudly, I suppose?

FarticCircle · 02/12/2015 01:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GreenTomatoJam · 02/12/2015 08:21

Boarding schools do house males and females separately - but that's not the point.

We can identify a population very easily, which has been socialised to be compliant, is an average of 2 stone and 8 inches smaller than another group, and is at risk of pregnancy.

You're suggesting that even though we can identify this group we should just lump them in with another easily identifiable group, who is bigger, much more numerous (in the prison population), commits the vast majority of all violent crime, and has the ability to make the first group pregnant.

Yeah.. no, doesn't sound like a bright idea to me.

PlaysWellWithOthers · 02/12/2015 08:32

Maybe this man should be in a mixed prison?

I'm failing to see how mixed prisons can be a good idea for anyone. Although perhaps the poster that suggested this is unaware of what prison life is actually like and can be forgiven for their ignorant statement????

Thistledew · 02/12/2015 08:41

Even taking away the risk of rape, if you house biological men with biological women in prison you have to accept the possibility of pregnancy occurring amongst prisoners.

How would you deal with that? Force women to take contraception? Only house the males with women serving sentences of less than 9 months? Make the prisoners prove they are only sexually attracted to people of the same sex before housing them with someone of the opposite sex?

Or do you accept children being conceived and born to parents in prison?

(And yes, I know that children are born in prison if their mothers go in pregnant, which is far from ideal due to the separation that has to occur if the mother is detained for more than a year. But you would have to accept that more children would be born in prison and would have to be removed from both parents.)

BeyondThirty · 02/12/2015 10:16

And adding to thistledews point, isnt it true that pregnant women (in late pregnancy and pp at least) are housed in the medical wing? Which is known to be 'easier' than main accommodation

So not only do we have women accidentally getting pregnant from being housed with the opposite sex, vulnerable women may be actively trying to get pregnant to keep themselves safe for a short period especially if we are adding violent be-penised people into their vicinity to rape them

TheTigerIsOut · 02/12/2015 10:27

I think it is ok to put transgender men in women prisons as long as they are fully transitioned. If not, no.

Having said that, this transgender person in the male prison was lnly starting the process so he was still, pretty much a male. Why would he be with the women?

noeffingidea · 02/12/2015 10:59

There was never any possibility of this prisoner being moved to a woman's prison, seeing as there are no facilities to house such a dangerous prisoner in any woman's prison.
Every case has to be examined on an individual basis, which presumably is what happens now. Hopefully it continues to be left up to the experts to decide rather than the twitter and tumblr activists.

SomeDyke · 02/12/2015 11:00

"SomeDyke: why are women housed separately to men? I can only think of reasons that might have been valid in the past, but aren't any more."

STOP THE PRESS! Important recent evolutionary change discovered! Humanity has now become an asexual species, and those formerly known as females will now reproduce by parthenogenesis, those formerly known as males will no longer be produced, and males finally disappear as they naturally die out. There have been SOME calls to try and keep some males for scientific purposes, but since no one can figure out how to do this, it seems nature will have to take it's course. Biologists were quoted as being quietly optimistic about this change, saying that they were anyway convinced that mathematically, asexual reproduction was more efficient than sexual reproduction. A noted biologist was quoted as saying "The other sensible option would be to do it like slugs and become hermaphroditic. But despite the extremely long copulatory bouts (see Chris Packham et al,'Springwatch', this biologist is quite glad nature decided to NOT go this way, since I don't think I could have dealt with the slime........."

BeyondThirty · 02/12/2015 11:06
BeyondThirty · 02/12/2015 11:11

of course another response might include the 1/4 women who have been raped vs the rather low conviction rate for it (rape crisis puts the figures at 15% of rapes are reported and 5% {OF THAT 15%} convicted. Those 5% must have been busy...)

BeyondThirty · 02/12/2015 11:12

sorry, errata, i think the 1/4 figure included sexual assault? Will try to find it

VestalVirgin · 02/12/2015 11:47

Superloud: in the daily mail article, there is no suggestion of rape - they just say there was sex. I know it could be daily mail being rubbish, but if it genuinely was consensual sex - would that be so bad? I may have watched a bit too much OITNB but I assume some sort of sex happens in any prison without trans people involved.

You ... do occasionally read feminist theory, yes?
There are those who doubt that PiV in patriarchy can be consensual. Now, agree with that or don't, but do you really think women who are imprisoned with violent males have a free choice?
Also consider that many of those women are already traumatized by male sexual violence. Some may have Stockholme Syndrome and cling to the first male who seems nice, as they hope he will protect them from the others.

Even men prostitute themselves in prison in exchange for protection ... and you think there is a free choice for women who are housed with males?

Yes, homosexual sex happens in prison. There is, however, a very important difference between homosexual and heterosexual sex. Mainly that the latter can lead to pregnancy, with all the risks involved.

Also, women in prison are unlikely to have been groomed for sexual abuse by women, therefore, the chance that lesbian sex in prison is consensual is way higher. (And I am sure it doesn't happen nearly as often as the TV wants to make you believe.)

HermioneWeasley · 02/12/2015 12:27

theTiger Tara Hudson who recently successfully campaigned to be moved to a woman's prison, hadn't transitioned beyond massive, porny breast implants and hair extensions. Tara still had a fully functioning penis, which we know quite a lot about because Tara advertised it as part of the sexual services offered.

So yes, fully functioning, violent males are being put in women's prisons.

I believe Vicky Thompson who recently died hadn't transitioned in any way apart from hair and make up.

But apparently in both cases they were "living like a woman" and Vicky's barrister argued that they were "essentially a woman"

The word "woman" is becoming meaningless.

SomeDyke · 02/12/2015 12:42

"SomeDyke: why are women housed separately to men? I can only think of reasons that might have been valid in the past, but aren't any more."

Okay, EASIER answer. Because biological women ASK FOR separation on the grounds of SEX. Because when vulnerable (toilets, changing rooms) or in constant close contact, many women would chose to either be with a person or set of people they KNOW (hotel rooms for example), OR when forced to be with strangers, with their own SEX (changing rooms, lavatories, prison).

But I guess 'Because we ASK for and EXPECT privacy from the other SEX', ISN'T a VALID reason anymore. We have no RIGHT to ask for or expect such privacy in the brave new gender-neutral world of planet trans..........................

VestalVirgin · 02/12/2015 12:46

The word "woman" is becoming meaningless.

This. I recently wrote a letter to the German feminist party to ask what their definition of "woman" is. Apparently, they didn't reach a consensus yet. Confused
I cannot, in good conscience, vote for a feminist party that has no clear definition of "woman".
(They have all kinds of nice ideas, of changing the work environment to suit women better, as it is currently catering to males, etc. but that all becomes meaningless if transwomen are now women, with stay at home "husbands" who give birth to their children, doesn't it?

BeyondThirty · 02/12/2015 14:15

"stay at home husbands who give birth"

Yy this!! I know one transwoman, whose partner is a transman. Bet you can guess who gets the wifework...

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 02/12/2015 14:24

the transwoman? hollow laugh

Original poster
Elendon · 02/12/2015 17:43

Some fantastic posts on here. Especially about the word woman becoming meaningless.

OP posts:
ShortcutButton · 02/12/2015 18:45

Tinsel rape is one aspect. But even if the sex is consensual, it is unacceptable. Its totally inhumane to create a situation where women can get pregnant in prison