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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

587 replies

Garrick · 31/08/2015 00:28

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong Confused

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 04/09/2015 09:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 04/09/2015 09:43

A mate of Pete Tong, I think.

Grin
ArcheryAnnie · 04/09/2015 09:43

There are no such things as "girly things". There are only "things".

And unless these twins were raised by wolves on a desert island, then they are as subject to societal pressure as everyone else.

So no, this case doesn't prove that you can be born the wrong sex.

Italiangreyhound · 04/09/2015 09:55

BriarRainbowshimmer ha ha that quiz is ludicrous, one question is good, I thin the answer was this quiz is a waste of time. It even predicts' ones genitals based on the quiz! Apparently I am male or intersex! I am female.
Yes that quiz is about submission, bullying (WTF!).

The trouble with so much of he identity crap is it is about you in relation to other people. If other people disappeared would not you still remain!

Italiangreyhound · 04/09/2015 09:55

the identity crap not he identity crap!

dementedDementor · 04/09/2015 10:01

Bob Todd is something Glen in The Thick of It says, yes meaning odd. I watch that programme a bit too much.

FinglesMcStingles · 04/09/2015 11:13

I got cismale too. Definitely checked the "have a female body" box.

As for the boxes - the logical conclusion is that we're going to need seven billion (and counting) gender identities so as not to exclude or misgender anyone. And they will presumably need to be accommodated by putting seven billion separate loos in each public building. Could prove a little tricky.

ALassUnparalleled · 04/09/2015 17:24

My DDs are at primary school and although they can wear trousers every single girl (bar one) wears skirts, long hair is absolutely prized, it does all seem that the pressure to conform is around quite a definite version of femininity

Why do you assume this is due to a pressure to conform as opposed to a simple preference? I hate trousers.
I always have. I find them very uncomfortable. The only time I have worn them was for a very brief period in my late teens. Yet at the same time I grew up in a household sufficiently peculiar and nonconformist to have a mother who did not, in the 50s and 60's take either of her 2 husbands' names or use their names for her children and a grandfather who actively supported her decision.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 04/09/2015 17:53

Because every single girl in the whole school wears skirts bar one, lass.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 04/09/2015 18:01

That I've noticed anyway Grin

Do you really look at that and think, every single girl here has such a firm preference for skirts that they never ever choose to wear trousers to school, and they have each come to this choice completely freely, and it's a total coincidence that every single child bar one has the exact same preference to the point that they never choose the other thing. That is obviously what is happening and I can't see why anyone would think otherwise.

I mean, really? I'm a bit, I don't understand that. Lots of adult women choose to wear trousers, always or often or sometimes. It's not like they are universally known to be horrible. If it were a choice between a traditional shirt and a polo shirt then yes sure. But this, really? You honestly believe it is extremely unlikely to be anything to do with peer pressure, or fashion, or what their parents buy for them, and totally completely likely to be a coincidence.

I'm a bit, um, I don't know about that. Is it supposed to seem like a reasonable point that lots of people will go "well yeah obviously it's to do with free individual comfort preferences why would anyone think otherwise"?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 04/09/2015 18:02

Sorry deleted and repeated and got distracted so have written a lot of that twice.

ALassUnparalleled · 04/09/2015 18:31

Why is it such a big deal they wear skirts?

Presumably you would be delighted if they all wore trousers?

When I first started work hardly any women,certainly in the professional staff, wore trousers. In the 90s tailored trouser suits were everywhere. In recent years I've noticed the number of women in my office who wear trousers is decreasing, many never do. Many of the younger women rarely, if ever do.

The only dress code is "smart" for client facing. Maybe it just is changing fashion that means they are wearing skirts and jackets, or more often , dresses. So what if it is?

Why is there this constant need to police (and belittle - because they can't possibly have made their own minds up) girls and women who prefer feminine clothes?

YonicScrewdriver · 04/09/2015 18:35

Lass

No one belittled them, though I know you always like to think so. Long hair and skirts are more traditionally feminine than short hair and trousers - if all girls are choosing one, or the other, isnt that worthy of comment, whichever option is picked?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 04/09/2015 18:36

What a strange response lass this seems to have hit a nerve.

I'm not sure what to say to you. I have observed that an entire school of girls (bat one!) seem to prefer a certain mode of dress and you seem to have taken this as a personal slight as it happens to be the mode of dress that you personally prefer.

I don't really mind what other people wear, I do however notice if pretty much all of an entire group of people have an extremely strong preference for something for which there is no obvious reason for it, and wonder why that is.

When I was at school in the early 80s lots of girls had short hair and punky hairstyles. Now the girls at my DD school prize long hair. I have noticed this. I find it interesting. I write it on here. You react as if I've just thrown a cowpat at you. I don't get it.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 04/09/2015 18:37

bar one

typing is rubbish today

ALassUnparalleled · 04/09/2015 18:39

I meant to mention this ages ago but really not having a gender- could being comfortable with your societal gender not just mean "she" "her" "hers" sounds natural?

I'm making the assumption none of you feel strange when addressed as "she" - does a transperson before transitioning experience "he" as alien or uncomfortable? Presumably, yes.

YonicScrewdriver · 04/09/2015 18:46

Lass, I think discomfort with one's body is a feature for many trans people

ALassUnparalleled · 04/09/2015 18:50

whirling for not caring what people wear you seem to care an awful lot.

Times change/fashions change. You mentioned what was in style when you were at school. It's different now -so what? Were you as judgemental of the girls with short hair and punk haircuts as you are of the girls with long hair?

I have said it before but I find this nitpicking over what women and girls wear tedious. I can't remember who it was but I was told by an FWR poster that the difference between her and me was that she thought about her clothes choices. How patronising. (as it is I actively avoid wherever possible buying clothes not made in the EU)

ALassUnparalleled · 04/09/2015 18:53

Lass, I think discomfort with one's body is a feature for many trans people

Yes I'm sure it is. That wasn't my point- for those of you who deny you have a gender - can having a gender at its most basic be no more than being comfortable being called "she" ?

YonicScrewdriver · 04/09/2015 18:54

It's not nitpicking lass, it's an observation. Please read what's actually there, not your preconception based on what another person might have said to you once in the past.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 04/09/2015 18:59

Lass this "for those of you who deny you have a gender" feels quite combative.

I understand that you strongly identify with being female (gender / internal sense) and that is just fine.

Can't you extend the same courtesy to those who don't?

YonicScrewdriver · 04/09/2015 19:02

"Lass this "for those of you who deny you have a gender" feels quite combative."

Indeed it does, whirlpool.

LurcioAgain · 04/09/2015 19:03

Going back to those online surveys, I'm another "cisgendered male" (despite having identified myself in question one as biologically female Confused )

ArcheryAnnie · 04/09/2015 19:05

That wasn't my point- for those of you who deny you have a gender - can having a gender at its most basic be no more than being comfortable being called "she" ?

ALass I'm not "comfortable" being called "she". I'm not "uncomfortable" about it, either. I don't care about it one way or another. My DS used to get called "she" all the time, and didn't notice, much less care. There's nothing "natural" or "comfortable" about it, it's just a convention. As the old saying goes - call me anything you like, just don't call me late for dinner.

And you seem to be awfully keen on pushing a concept on people who insist that concept doesn't apply to them. You can dilute that concept all you like in an effort to make it fit, but if people don't have a gender, just a sex, then that's it.

FinglesMcStingles · 04/09/2015 19:22

I have no gender identity. I'm happy to be referred to as 'she' because I understand it to mean 'an individual who happens to have a female reproductive system'. I'd quite like it if we had pronouns that weren't sex-specific, because in many contexts it's not overly relevant what genitals the person in question has. I assume trans people generally dislike pronouns associated with their birth sex because such pronouns serve as a reminder of the sexed body about which they feel dysphoric.