So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

[CatsAndCatsAndCats]

i do believe people can be born in the wrong body but i do think it is wrong to let them change before 16/18
I have a cousin who use to say the same thing, she was a girl who always wanted "boy toys" ect and she didnt like her breast but she grew up and isn't transgender or a lesbian which everyone thought she would be.

[dementedDementor]

Bertie I absolutely hate the idea that girl's are all bitchy. Boys aren't of course. I read on mn once that all girl's go through a "bitch phase". I hate it.

Sorry I know this isnt really related to the thread but it's one of my pet hates (partly I just hate the word 'bitch') and it seems so accepted by mn.

[Garrick]

YYY, Bertie.

[BertieBotts]

If I could edit I would now retract shopping comment as it seems somewhat irrelevant and TBH probably not even that true.

[BertieBotts]

Oh my emphasis didn't work, never mind, you can see where I put the stars in if you like.

Garrick I agree with the idea of a man being able to wear dresses and it not being something "progressive" or "taboo". Medically reinforcing gender just seems so frightening and stark when you look at it like that.

Female space is actually really empowering, I've found. It's not just the sense of being able to discuss childbirth, periods, and sex without worrying about offending or titillating somebody in the group, it's the sense of being able to discuss oppression - and often without actively intending or often even realising that you are discussing oppression - and everybody else innately understanding and relating to it. And then the sense of support. Despite what people say about bitchiness and backstabbing in all-female environments, I've never found this - only at school which was a totally mixed one. In my experience, all-female or hugely female-dominated spaces tend to be HIGHLY supportive, with a real sense of community and care about the members. And in some cases they do enact real change in the wider community too. Over the past few months, even before Christmas, well before the coverage in the media an all-female group local to me have been rallying, collecting, organising and delivering donations to a refugee centre, one member even took it upon herself to run a "Christmas shoebox" collection for children in the camp and with money collected from the group bought twelve boys football boots.

I don't think I've ever heard women talking about shopping unless it was an information sharing kind of thing, e.g. where can I buy X, has anybody seen any good Y recently.

It feels to me like women feel unthreatened in all-female groups, which allows the more personal subjects to come out without fear of ridicule or attack, and allows a sense of yes of course I'll help you, without fear of being scammed or lured into a trap. And that really highlights to me just how threatened we do generally feel in mixed company even if we don't feel personally threatened by the men who are around. It's more of a potential threat than an active one, but it silences us. Holy shit.

[Garrick]

There was one little point from the beginning of the thread that I wanted to clear up. I called little Logan camp, and said the camp little boys I knew had mostly grown up to be camp. I realised later that most readers assumed I meant camp and gay. I didn't. There are camp straight men - and women; I've been called camp more than once!

[Garrick]

Agreed about the child in the OP, Lass. As ever, my issue begins & ends with pink & blue gender boxes. A boy who like wearing dresses is a boy who likes wearing dresses. I don't see why the hell he shouldn't grow up into a man who likes wearing dresses - that's the order of change I'd like our society to make, instead of medically reinforcing 'gender'.

[Garrick]

Briefly free of the male gaze, women talk about women stuff - shopping & relationships, but also periods and pregnancy and menopause and all the crappy messy stuff that comes with a biologically female body (unless you're Lass, who is enviably free of it all and only has to shave her legs once a week!)

This is the stuff that angry transwomen want us not to discuss in front of them.

[ALassUnparalleled]

We've come a long way from the opening premise of this thread.

I'm still not convinced the child in question is doing anything more than expressing a preference for things his mother thinks are suitable only for girls. And that might for all we know be the child's way of expressing a difference from the other twin given the mother started off dressing them identically.

[colley]

Yes agreed women do act differently in women only spaces.

[BertieBotts]

Yes actually you're right, Lass, I found that bit hard to relate to as well. But only personally - I have seen so many of my female friends go through the body-loathing and self discomfort that it does form part of the typical female experience for me. I think the main reason I haven't experienced it personally is because I have never struggled with my weight and because my mum never modelled being unhappy with her body and wasn't interested in fashion so we never had magazines etc around the house.

I also appreciate the point that I didn't say that I felt it summed up what it means to be a (biological) woman - I think I identify with it because it sums up how I feel about gender. That I started off believing trans was about a discomfort with one's bodily sex, and then the confusion comes in when people start talking about gender, because, to me, and to quote from the article:

"...of course, many of the things I like to do and wear are things that are typically aligned with womanhood. But I didn’t come to like those things in a cultural or social vacuum, but against a backdrop of powerful social messages about what kinds of things women ought to like, so it’s no surprise that I should come to like some of these things. And anyway, I don’t feel that these things reflect anything deep, essential or natural about my identity. They are just my tastes and preferences. Had I been raised in a different culture, I might have had different ones, but I would still have been basically the same person.

"Furthermore, just like all other persons, a lot of the stuff I like to do and to wear is not stuff that is stereotypically feminine. A lot of the things I like and enjoy are things that are usually regarded as masculine. Just like everybody else, I’m not a one-dimensional gender stereotype .... Even on those occasions when I consciously and deliberately participate in performing femininity, by wearing makeup or typically feminine clothes, I don’t see this as me expressing my gender identity; rather, I am conforming to...a socially constructed ideal of what woman is. And furthermore, once it’s decoupled from traditional, restrictive notions about what it is appropriate for people of different sexes to do, it’s not clear why it makes sense to call any of this stuff “gender”, as opposed to just “stuff I like” or “my personality”."

Emphasis mine. I cut out a couple of parts which I felt were unnecessary, I haven't changed the message. But this sums up for me how the two parts of the argument or discussion aren't really meeting in the middle, because they are on two totally different planes of existence.

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

The only thing I know about menopause is from 2 women I work with who like to regale me with stories when I bump into them in the ladies!

Which incidentally was the thing that made me realise that although I didn't think I utilised any female only space, made me realise that actually I do. Many women wouldn't natter on about menopause symptoms and stuff so openly if there were blokes around. Interesting. Taken for granted, I guess, you'd notice if it were gone I think. Women and girls do talk and act differently when there are no blokes around, I think. Having made a point of paying attention, the last few months.

I'll have a look at angela carter (although I don't know if I could manage a "proper" book at the moment!).

[Garrick]

For me, feminism makes you think about gender and be a bit more analytical about what you & other people are doing with it. I would be astonished if there were some condition of less-gendered identity which leads one towards feminism. For instance, we've had a lot of threads on MN over the years, asking "Do you feel like a woman?" and similar.

The vast majority of (un-feministy) replies have focused on hair & makeup, fashion and so on. That's all very superficial and not, by any means, exclusive to cissy (heh) women. I love all that stuff, even did it for a living. So do a lot of men who are not trans or gay. It's gender performance for women, and it's also an art form. Interior design; sewing; cookery - also factors within gender performance for women, and also creative paths which men adopt as well without compromising their gender identity.

Some parts of those discussions went deeper. There was a lot of talk about childbirth and early baby bonding. I haven't experienced it, but can easily believe it's the ultimate coming-together of body, mind & purpose as regards biological sex & gender. Some women - me included - said we have only felt "womanly" during sex. Again, this is a biological function during which hormones are released en masse. The "feeling like a woman" is biologically prompted and is a passing phenomenon, not a long-term identity.

Then there was stuff about feeling all little and fragile next to some strapping man. As a strapping woman, I rarely experience this but can identify to an extent if I cast my mind back to the rare occasions when I've met a friendly giant. It feels kind of nice - and has curiosity value for me - but it also makes me a tad nervous, as the physical disparity means I am in fact vulnerable. This last part might be my feministy side speaking, particularly as I have much experience with violent men. But I suspect most little women feel vulnerable quite often. That's not a celebration of one's sex or gender.

Sorry for yet another incoherent brain dump ... this thread and all the associated reading have brought me to a conclusion. I don't believe in gender identity. Sorry, trans folks. The transwomen I've known (very many, but in a different culture) didn't either. They had trans identity. They were necessarily clued-up about gender politics in their society, and what we had in common - more than eyeliner, etc! - was that we were all gender critical. I think the transwomen for whom gender identity is important are just insufficiently informed on gender issues. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I want to thank everyone, particularly on this thread, for all the input

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

xposts again sorry!

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

demented yes I also read that and meant to comment but then got carried away on a tangent!

Yes I agree with that Sun 06-Sep-15 21:14:04, it resonated with me. It sums up what it means to be a woman for me. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's why I'm so interested to hear from those who do have a strong internal sense of gender, if there are any similar blogs expressing it, so we can further understanding.

[ALassUnparalleled]

That blurb for Jazz's reality show includes the line that even gynacologists can't tell a MTFs body isn't really male, which has to be a complete lie really.

That surprised me too.

[ALassUnparalleled]

I know that you have an internal id of female, so have you read anything that you can share that encapsulates that in a similar way? It would really help with understanding this stuff, if you can think of anything.

I can't off the top of my head- except fiction, possibly Angela Carter - works such as The Bloody Chamber perhaps which celebrate being a woman and the resourcefulness of women?

Pregnancy was a doddle (sorry) ending in an elective caesarean ( which also bore no relation to the horror stories I'd been told about them). I must have gone through the menopause by now but to be honest the only noticeable symptom was that if I had ever bothered removing pubic hair I could stop now.

I'm sorry to hear of your experiences and I hope menopause is not awful, although I assume you are probably now in a better position to ask (demand) help.

[nooka]

I'm pretty at ease with my body really. Could do without periods now and am hoping menopause will be OK but I generally look at myself with acceptance if not always pleasure. Those tests tell me that I am actually a man - not trans, but anatomically male (wtf!). I did have a point in my teens when I was fairly unhappy with being a girl, I styled myself in a very androgynous way (when not in my gendered uniform) and was quite unhappy and aggressive. I don't think to the extent that I would have been referred to a specialist if I was a teen now (at least not in the UK) but who knows really?

Instead I grew up, traveled and discovered myself and then met dh, who is physically very male but has a lot of feminine traits too and is happy with me being me. So I relaxed about myself and got on with things.

I do worry about young people now. My dd has a friend who has decided that they are really a boy and it's definitely confusing for her although she is totally a trans ally (some massive arguments about it in my household). I just think it's sad that the friend can't go on being the really interesting non conforming androgen and has to sign up to a new box which may well mean medical issues their whole life.

There seems to be a really odd idea that you can actually change sex. That blurb for Jazz's reality show includes the line that even gynacologists can't tell a MTFs body isn't really male, which has to be a complete lie really.

[dementedDementor]

What struck me in the last couple of pages is that Bertie and Galaxy felt this
moreradicalwithage.com/2014/08/04/am-i-cisgender/
summed up what it means to be a woman.

I didn't think they said this sums up what it means to be a woman, just that they agreed with it on a personal level?

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

Oh should stop to say as well that the points made in the blog as well - I do think that sex dysphoria must be cripplingly awful and so really can't even begin to think about that. I'm not drawing a parallel between that and "oh periods piss me off" but there are many people who are trans now who have much lesser levels of discomfort with their bodies or in fact are quite happy with them (as I have read) and of course there are plenty of women and girls who harbour such dislike for their own bodies that they hurt themselves etc and of course body dysphoria can be and is experienced in different ways than just sex and this occurs in women as well.

Just trying to cover all the bases here. I really don't think this should be or needs to be a competition though.

slugs yes the correlation with being a pretty staunch feminist and not feeling an internal gender identity does seem to be quite strong, anecdotally from posters on this site. It adds an extra dimension to these conversations doesn't it. None of this is new stuff obviously many people have noticed this but I suppose for me this thread has really made me think, yes that is how it is for me.

[dementedDementor]

I (under a diff username) actually linked to that blog in the other recent trans thread. I can relate to it too. I can also relate to this:

However I suspect that making that pronouncement would be met with a certain amount of derision as my appearance is (naturally) very feminine, I'm not a young beautiful androgynous person, I adhere to the norms of dress for a woman in our society, no-one would look at me and think "ah she's not quite female somehow" although it is fair to say that when people get to know me they often find a lot of my attitudes, opinions and interests a bit unexpected - which takes us back to why feminism in the first place!

[Garrick]

What is stopping you from looking up the word "woman"? I really think that you will learn something from the experience.

I really needed the laugh this gave me. Thanks, Cote

[WhirlpoolGalaxyM51]

lots of x posts there!