So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

Cis male too.
Well, huh.

Cookies cleared and I'm still a man! It's me and you against the world, yonic.

Game of keepy uppy, Dementor?

Sure, I'll see you down the pitch in 10- I'll be the one running away from the ball while screaming.

I like the way these things always have a picture of david bowie on them

David bowie, as far as I'm aware (and no I don't know him ) never thought he was a woman. He was (and is) a man who wanted to dress how he wanted to dress and that's that. Chucking the gender stereotypes out the window. We have gone miles backwards since then, it seems.

The 70s and much of the 80s it was so exciting with people being freer to present themselves however they fancied, boys with big hair and frills in makeup, girls with very short hair and big boots. What happened?

It also occurred to me while listening to selected 80s tracks on the way to work that loads of the artists were fairly openly or totally openly gay. Mainstream popular acts like Erasure, Pet Shop Boys, Bronski Beat... Does that still happen? I have no idea I'm not down with the kids

I mean I'm not saying it was all marvellous and in some respects things have moved forwards but in others they seem to have regressed horribly. Things do seem to be opening up again now in terms of hair, fashion and stuff, when I walk around, things are getting louder and women are getting shorn and boys are having longer hair and stuff, so I have hope we are going into a (hopefully long!) period where anything goes a bit more again.

I thought lots of pop stars now are queer. Which usually seems to mean they might have short relationships or flirtations with someone of the same sex, but the person they actually settle down with is opposite sex. There are very few out pop stars who only have opposite sex partners.

I have just read this whole thread from start to finish, and it has been a fascinating read.

Buffy you are on top form, and I must say you explain concepts very well. I can picture you writing books: "Epistemiology Made Simple".

I find a lot of trans threads seem to go round in circles. This one has been a bit different.

I think being gay is more acceptable to society than being a lesbian. I don't think anyone would say Sam Smith or Will Young were experimenting or doing it for attention, whereas I've seen it written online about Miley Cyrus and that model with the weird surname... Cara Develinge (sp).

Although dp tells me that no (or just one or two) male footballers are openly gay. Which I think is sad as a fair proportion of them must be. I don't know about other sports.

I thought Rita Ora went out with Calvin Harris. I get most of my celeb gossip from dp though so I may be wrong!

I got cis male too! I wonder if I can be it because I feel it - Yes, actually, the LAW says YOU CAN All you have to do is 'identify as a man' and, whoopsie, you're male!

I have been considering doing this for shizz & giggles. Then I realised that, as correctly identified by an internet pop quiz, I'm already all the genders and nobody would notice any difference! Trufact.

I'm totally with you on the '70s & '80s, Whirlpool. I blame all them progressive arts for my pangenderism.

I'm transfeminine apparently.

You are Transfeminine! Assigned a male sexual identity at birth, you now identify as a female at the core. Like a Transmasculine, you may not always conform 100% as a female or continue to do so all the time, but you do prefer to represent yourself physically and behaviorally as a female due to the internal connection you feel to your feminine side. In relation to other genders, you're just being yourself; and a person has to be able to express their gender identity through the way they see fit. For you this may be through fashion trends, interests and a more feminine thought process. Regardless, no one can or should tell you the "right" way to be a female!

I'm pretty sure I was never assigned a male sexual identity at birth, but if the internet is telling me so, I must be wrong...

Some of them I gave up on as there were questions where none of the answers applied. Playbuzz says I'm a cisgender female which isn't surprising.

I got cismale too. Badly designed quiz maybe?

Or perhaps it's telling us we are all hairy handed truckers after all

Bertie, surely you're not suggesting that an internet quiz with about 10 questions is a complete load of bollocks?

Well apparently I am a stunning looking blonde with a lot of leaves around her head.

I'm a two-spirit apparently!

You are considered to be the 3rd Gender: a Two-Spirit! The term Two-Spirit was originally coined by the Zuni Tribe, stating that an individual who has masculine and feminine characteristics (external and internal), is a person of the third gender. You like to present yourself as a combination of the two identities, creating an alternate one that allows you to express yourself as the best of both worlds. You don't need to choose between male and female and you certainly don't need to lack any attributes of the two genders; instead of you utilize both traits of each identity and display them in the way you believe the world should see you and how you feel most comfortable with yourself.

Sorry, but doesn't this apply to everyone?! It's cos I chose Frank N Furter, isn't it?

Another man here, according to online tests
I thought this quiz was disturbing:
unboxifyme.com/wild-quiz-whats-your-gender-identity/
It bases your gender on aggression and submission, on being the bully or the bullied. Which is close to radical feminist analysis of gender as a tool of oppression but it doesn't question it at all.

Ebear do you feel a strong feminine connection to your feminine side?

Is brilliant there are so many men!

There is one interesting thing though. The two people (at least lass I think you are one, the other is a definite) who have no problem with "cis" both come out on the (bollocks) quiz as cis, which might ggo a long way to explaining why they don't have a problem with the label. Because it fits them.

All of the women who have a problem with the label, well maybe that is because it doesn't fit. And not just in a theoretical "I reject gender" way but in a personal "that label feels all wrong" way.

And yet all women who aren't trans are automatically labelled cis. How do the people using this know all the women who aren't trans, are cis, unless they ask each and every one personally?

And the answer I think is that all of these discussions are about individuals, individual identities - a trans person feeling how they feel, a bi gender person feeling how they feel - and the terminology and the (actual) changes to the meanings of words have not been considered in the light of what happens when they are applied to large swathes of people.

For instance, the words "woman" and "girl" become unusable unless you go and ask every individual in the group what the identify as, and then you will get a load of them not being girls even though they are at risk of been married at 10 or whatever it is that you were trying to get to grips with in the first place. Because, again, the people who want to marry girls off at 10, they don't care about this, they only care about what's in your knickers.

I mean people always tried to put me in boxes and I didn't like it.

That's why I became a feminist - or kind of just was really, no-one told me about it, the first time someone said this is what it is I thought well that's sensible I'm one of those. As a teen my feminism came from people trying to put me in boxes, and at 15 or so I understood that feminism meant trying to get rid of the boxes so that everyone could live without constraint, to dress and act and be how they felt comfortable with. And be treated equitably as well, the other things that made me think feminism was the correct thing for me was an absolute visceral anger about being harassed on the street (I hated it more than many of my peers, I mean none of them liked it, but I got SO ANGRY and had no way of expressing that anger) and reading about things being done to women and girls elsewhere in the world and I guess having an understanding of a bit of history that things had been shit and were gradually improving but there's a way to go.

Anyway. A lot of it was to do with the boxes. I wanted, and still want, to get rid of them. This new thing, these new terms, all it's saying is "look there's some more boxes! now you have 6 or 8 or 10 to choose from instead of the 2 or 4 we had before!" but this is no big revolution in individual freedom is it, it's still constraining, the boxes still exist, and the thing is, no matter how many you make, there are still going to be some people who don't fit and so life for them will still be difficult and shit.

I agree about the boxes, Whirlpool.

I remember when I was at primary school in the 90s we were really encouraged to celebrate individuality; everyone is unique and has their own special gift and that kind of thing. Does that not happen anymore?

I know teenagers particularly have always formed subcultures and been obsessed with fitting in but it seems to have all gone a bit Bob Todd.

My DDs are at primary school and although they can wear trousers every single girl (bar one) wears skirts, long hair is absolutely prized, it does all seem that the pressure to conform is around quite a definite version of femininity.

I mean they still tronk around on the monkey bars and run around and stuff but the appearance thing seems very narrow at the moment in terms of what is acceptable / desirable.

Who or what is bob todd