So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

Yy to Fingles. If "it" was the pronoun du jour for all people, that'd be fine.

I'm not judging the girls I am interested to note that current fashions for primary school girls, at the school my daughters attend, are very firmly at the more feminine end of the scale. I note that this has not always been the way. I wonder what this says about our society more widely.

How that can be taken as slagging off individual little girls - I don't get it. My own children wear skirts and have very long hair. I mean clearly I don't have a problem with them. I also wear a skirt to work every day myself and wear very high heels in the office. Because I feel like it. I honestly couldn't give a monkeys what individuals get up to, but when large groups of people are all doing the same thing for no obvious reason or benefit, I wonder why that is.

I really think you are taking this very personally - it was a really innocuous observation.

Saying "Deny you have an identity" is combative? So what about the many , many posts on FWR saying things such as posters have no gender identity or they don't understand what anyone means by a gender identity or they don't have a gender?

Including the one above saying "I have no gender identity"?

"for those of you who deny you have a gender" is combative because it implies you think that those who do so are mistaken or in denial of a true fact.

Lass it feels a bit like you're after a fight.

It's not combative for a person to say that they personally don't know what it feels like to have a gender id, or what that could comprise or be, that they can't understand it, because they are talking about their own feelings.

A denial is usually issued in response to an accusation. What you said makes it sound like you are suspicious of people who say they don't have one, it's not a neutral phrasing at all.

I can't do another episode of The Lass Show, where she is allowed to criticise everyone else's everyday language but no one can criticise hers.

Night all.

At least my brain gets a rest, it's not easy trying to keep up with buffy and holly

I for one am really very offended that lass thinks dresses and heels are the only acceptable clothing choices for proper women.

I never said anything of the sort.

A denial is usually issued in response to an accusation. What you said makes it sound like you are suspicious of people who say they don't have one, it's not a neutral phrasing at all.

That is not what I meant. Every time gender is mentioned the stock response from many posters on FWR is they don't have a gender. A denial that it applies to them. I have not said I think it applies.

Whirlpool is right: little girls are feminised more these days. At school when I was a child girls wore baggy jeans and t shirts and it was vulgar to preen.
To add to the debate a little I am a scientist and therefore was not into anything classed as girly. My dad was dead against Barbies and pretty things. I only started getting involved in my looks now I am aging and I need to.
I don't associate with a gender as described here but obviously my sex is female but this is just biological for me.
I understand it must be extremely distressing to feel as if you are the wrong sex or gender but it is also quite difficult for those of us to understand and who have never given it much though before.

To add to the debate a little I am a scientist and therefore was not into anything classed as girly

Why does being a scientist preclude you from having an Interest in "anything classed as girly"?

Are there other professions which are incompatible with "girly" things?

i would say I feel like a woman but I can't for the life of me describe what that actually feels like.

I feel British too but again couldn't put that across in any sane way.

It's like trying to grasp smoke.

Why does being a scientist preclude you from having an Interest in "anything classed as girly

I have to admit I agree with lass on this one.

I feel British too but again couldn't put that across in any sane way.

I can have a stab at that. I was born here but spent my teenage years abroad. I came back to the UK at age 20. To me, it's language (English, obvs, with all its quirks and foibles), geography (you don't get such lush grass, rolling hills and greenery anywhere else I've been), weather (nowhere else looks quite as good in the rain), manners and customs (e.g. queuing, beating around the bush in so many ways), a bit of history (castles and Stonehenge and whatnot) and humour (nowhere else does satire quite as well).

The only terms I can describe being a woman in are biological and the social expectations and limitations I am subjected to, the way I'm treated by others in effect. But those don't seem to really apply when talking internal gender feelings.

nino

This is interesting. I think feeling British might be similar (ish) subject to similar issues as gender identity.

I'm sure there are people in Britain who don't feel British so might not see it as a "thing"
But equally others do feel British so I would argue it does exist.

Now obviously feeling British does mean a different thing for every person.
You meantioned the language, well what about Welsh. Is that only relevant to feeling Welsh or is it also a part of being British?

The lush green rolling hills. Well Scotland doesn't look like that. The Cotswolds and Cumbria look utterly different.
Obviously the weather up North and down South is very different.

So I think there is such a thing as feeling British but it is completely different for everyone. Because everyone's experience is unique.

Now I might argue that all of these things are geographical stereotypes but that doesn't mean we can use them in a discussion.

Oops should have been doesnt mean we can't use them in a discussion

I'll tell you another British thing - there's something different about how we are at the beach. I rolled up at a European beach laden with blanket, wind-whatsit, buckets, spades, toy cars, balls etc. I proceeded to cover any exposed bit of myself or my kids in sunblock (and they were wearing onsie costumes and a hat), rolled up my jeans (remembered everything else, forgot my swimmers) and paddled in the water.

All the locals had a cooler, a mat and an umbrella, perhaps a rubber ring for the kids (who used them in the sea! My water safety brain almost exploded). They were in bikinis/shorts, and I think I saw one bottle of sun block the whole time!

They looked at us like we were mad. Mind you it had taken a while to find a beach with actual sand, as all the closest were rock or what appeared to be fine gravel. And the DSes made friends with the toys.

But anyway, that's not why I came here..

I don't feel uncomfortable being called 'she' but then if someone says 'he' I don't generally bother correcting (unless it's going to cause a problem because they're picking me up from the airport or something). DS1 must have picked up on this, because he's really foggy about pronouns and he's 5 now (and totally on the ball with plenty of other things).

I wore a skirt to primary school because it was unheard of for girls to wear trousers. I did have short hair on and off though (once in juniors), and more than once got mistaken for a boy (even if in a dress) so I don't think it's particularly new for all the girls to look the same. (and all the boys too - although I don't remember any boys with anything more than that step/basin thing we did in the 80s when I was at primary)

I don't think it's particularly new for all the girls to look the same

I would agree with you. In fact I see more and more boys with long hair now (all be it in a boyish style).