So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

I don't think it is hard at all.

As I said much earlier in the thread, I completely understand what people mean when they say a woman is an internal feeling and then go on to describe it. And I gave examples of traditional women who believe all women are defined by nurturing feelings, or those like Jazz Jennings who describe women as being defined by a consumerist feminine aesthetic.

I understand that I disagree with those people but this is a pluralist society and they are explaining their beliefs in good faith and a spirit of trying to be understood Many trans women have done that.

It isn't posting in good faith to repeatedly make the meaningless statement that a woman is someone who feels like a woman and refuse to be explicit as to what a woman is.

It isn't posting in good faith for Whenshewas to claim I have asked her things that I have never asked her.

It isn't posting in good faith to say that you can't explain what a woman is beyond a feeling, but then be entirely capable of explaining what intersex means and refer to people as 'regular XY boys' which is not a feeling at all, to bring up mother as a gender identity and then assume that means a person who has given birth (a biological function).

It is fundamentally dishonest to keep insisting that you believe woman is a gender identity - so a feeling and then keep mentioning genes and reproductive biology as examples. It is wholly inconsistent.

"Now that lead to questions of "what is a woman"? "

Why do you still keep asking this?

If you don't have a dictionary at home, there are plenty of online dictionaries that you can use free of charge. You clearly have internet access. What is stopping you from looking up the word "woman"? I really think that you will learn something from the experience.

Thanks slug appreciated

Whirlpool, that blog is brilliant. I agree with everything she says there.

I have found this thread really interesting actually it has helped coalesce some ideas starting with that rubbish pop quiz

I think that me (and many women on MN) do not have an "internal gender identity" and that this has been a source of confusion and misunderstanding from the get go. When a person who doesn't know what something feels like is asked to understand the feelings of someone who does, it is incredibly hard. So trans people who by definition have this feeling and have it strongly, and the non trans people who do, think that the non-feeling it people are being difficult and trying to make some kind of point. Meanwhile the people who don't feel it, are flailing around trying to understand what it is and how it works, and all hey can think of are gender stereotypes, and this (understandably) makes them pissed off.

The interesting thing is that I suspect that many women come to be feminists as a reaction against the gendered role they are put in, and that they don't feel it fits, they don't feel comfortable with it, or aspects of it. I guess this might be why many women react so strongly against the idea of being called cis - it's not just because of a reaction against the idea due to being gender critical, but actually a more visceral reaction of "that does not fit me why are you calling me that".

So in many ways it seems like there should be more similarities than arguments but sadly there aren't, it seems.

The really interesting thing from a personal perspective is that if we really need to label each and every different internal way of being, then having had a good think prompted by the crap quiz I would say that I certainly don't have an internal gender identity, so by the new naming systems I suppose I am agender. Well OK.

However I suspect that making that pronouncement would be met with a certain amount of derision as my appearance is (naturally) very feminine, I'm not a young beautiful androgynous person, I adhere to the norms of dress for a woman in our society, no-one would look at me and think "ah she's not quite female somehow" although it is fair to say that when people get to know me they often find a lot of my attitudes, opinions and interests a bit unexpected - which takes us back to why feminism in the first place!

So anyone, if anyone calls me cis now I can quite merrily tell them to get stuffed so that's something

And that's the end of another stream of consciousness post. And probably says badly the same as the blog post that I put up a little earlier

This is by the by with the whole language / what is going to happen to the women's movement if being female (and male) is entirely divorced from biology in speech when in all parts of the world actually everyone knows what a female is (and what a male is) and that has consequences which are often not good for said females.

Yes, Whirlpool. It is a matter of understanding. And I'm not here because it is some kind of interesting discussion. I'm here because, as I outlined on the other thread, I need to understand the perspective of people who have a gender identity. Because I have to help support DD as she develops her adult identity while a number of her friends have come out as trans boys.

What struck me in the last couple of pages is that Bertie and Galaxy felt this
moreradicalwithage.com/2014/08/04/am-i-cisgender/
summed up what it means to be a woman.

For me, a born xx woman and a mother it's as impossible to identify with and relate to as I suspect I would find a transman's account of why he is a man.

The passage below for example is completely alien to my personal experience. I do not feel "an enormous amount of distress and dis-ease living in my female body". My female body is not "a continual source of shame and suffering for me".

I can live in my female body without discomfort, suffering, or anguish. Actually, that isn’t true, and I suspect it isn’t true for most women. As a woman raised in a culture that constantly bombards women with the message that their bodies are unacceptable, even disgusting, I feel an enormous amount of distress and dis-ease living in my female body, in a way that has shaped my life and continues to do so every day. What I really mean is that I have never felt that the discomfort and unhappiness I feel living in a female body would be eased if that body were male instead. While my female body is a continual source of shame and suffering for me

Yes when I said that I mainly related to it, the part about the body didn't fit for me at all, I've always been pretty comfortable in my body from that perspective, and was fortunate enough to be pretty oblivious at school while pretty much everyone around me struggled with eating disorders (I was at the sort of school where that is rife).

But I know that enormous amounts of girls and women do have varying amounts of discomfort with their bodies, eating disorders and self harm are pretty rife aren't they, girls trying to stave off the onset of puberty by not eating, wearing clothes to cover their breasts due to the attention they get and so on. It's fairly well documented that lots of females feel varying amounts of discomfort (as do boys in increasing numbers).

Interestingly I have a medical problem which meant a lot of hospital and pain and stuff when I was young, so I very much hated that part of my body, and I wonder if my focus on that bit of the body as being so awful, meant I got away with all the other stuff! Certainly if you have a bit which fails and means you get left out and stuff, maybe it occupies your thoughts so you don't get the other stuff, or the other stuff doesn't seem so bad, don't know.

Anyway. Actually, thinking about it, periods piss me off no end, pregnancy was shite, childbirth was shite, the whole children think totally fucked my mental health so that was no fun.... So actually the stuff around reproduction I'd be more than happy to lose. I hear that menopause can be a bastard as well so there's that to look forward to

Anyway yes, maybe that gives you some insight lass? Apart from the body thing, that blog is exactly me. And it sounds like it's exactly bertie, full stop.

I know that you have an internal id of female, so have you read anything that you can share that encapsulates that in a similar way? It would really help with understanding this stuff, if you can think of anything.

lots of x posts there!

What is stopping you from looking up the word "woman"? I really think that you will learn something from the experience.

I really needed the laugh this gave me. Thanks, Cote

I (under a diff username) actually linked to that blog in the other recent trans thread. I can relate to it too. I can also relate to this:

However I suspect that making that pronouncement would be met with a certain amount of derision as my appearance is (naturally) very feminine, I'm not a young beautiful androgynous person, I adhere to the norms of dress for a woman in our society, no-one would look at me and think "ah she's not quite female somehow" although it is fair to say that when people get to know me they often find a lot of my attitudes, opinions and interests a bit unexpected - which takes us back to why feminism in the first place!

Oh should stop to say as well that the points made in the blog as well - I do think that sex dysphoria must be cripplingly awful and so really can't even begin to think about that. I'm not drawing a parallel between that and "oh periods piss me off" but there are many people who are trans now who have much lesser levels of discomfort with their bodies or in fact are quite happy with them (as I have read) and of course there are plenty of women and girls who harbour such dislike for their own bodies that they hurt themselves etc and of course body dysphoria can be and is experienced in different ways than just sex and this occurs in women as well.

Just trying to cover all the bases here. I really don't think this should be or needs to be a competition though.

slugs yes the correlation with being a pretty staunch feminist and not feeling an internal gender identity does seem to be quite strong, anecdotally from posters on this site. It adds an extra dimension to these conversations doesn't it. None of this is new stuff obviously many people have noticed this but I suppose for me this thread has really made me think, yes that is how it is for me.

What struck me in the last couple of pages is that Bertie and Galaxy felt this
moreradicalwithage.com/2014/08/04/am-i-cisgender/
summed up what it means to be a woman.

I didn't think they said this sums up what it means to be a woman, just that they agreed with it on a personal level?

I'm pretty at ease with my body really. Could do without periods now and am hoping menopause will be OK but I generally look at myself with acceptance if not always pleasure. Those tests tell me that I am actually a man - not trans, but anatomically male (wtf!). I did have a point in my teens when I was fairly unhappy with being a girl, I styled myself in a very androgynous way (when not in my gendered uniform) and was quite unhappy and aggressive. I don't think to the extent that I would have been referred to a specialist if I was a teen now (at least not in the UK) but who knows really?

Instead I grew up, traveled and discovered myself and then met dh, who is physically very male but has a lot of feminine traits too and is happy with me being me. So I relaxed about myself and got on with things.

I do worry about young people now. My dd has a friend who has decided that they are really a boy and it's definitely confusing for her although she is totally a trans ally (some massive arguments about it in my household). I just think it's sad that the friend can't go on being the really interesting non conforming androgen and has to sign up to a new box which may well mean medical issues their whole life.

There seems to be a really odd idea that you can actually change sex. That blurb for Jazz's reality show includes the line that even gynacologists can't tell a MTFs body isn't really male, which has to be a complete lie really.

I know that you have an internal id of female, so have you read anything that you can share that encapsulates that in a similar way? It would really help with understanding this stuff, if you can think of anything.

I can't off the top of my head- except fiction, possibly Angela Carter - works such as The Bloody Chamber perhaps which celebrate being a woman and the resourcefulness of women?

Pregnancy was a doddle (sorry) ending in an elective caesarean ( which also bore no relation to the horror stories I'd been told about them). I must have gone through the menopause by now but to be honest the only noticeable symptom was that if I had ever bothered removing pubic hair I could stop now.

I'm sorry to hear of your experiences and I hope menopause is not awful, although I assume you are probably now in a better position to ask (demand) help.

That blurb for Jazz's reality show includes the line that even gynacologists can't tell a MTFs body isn't really male, which has to be a complete lie really.

That surprised me too.

demented yes I also read that and meant to comment but then got carried away on a tangent!

Yes I agree with that Sun 06-Sep-15 21:14:04, it resonated with me. It sums up what it means to be a woman for me. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's why I'm so interested to hear from those who do have a strong internal sense of gender, if there are any similar blogs expressing it, so we can further understanding.

xposts again sorry!

For me, feminism makes you think about gender and be a bit more analytical about what you & other people are doing with it. I would be astonished if there were some condition of less-gendered identity which leads one towards feminism. For instance, we've had a lot of threads on MN over the years, asking "Do you feel like a woman?" and similar.

The vast majority of (un-feministy) replies have focused on hair & makeup, fashion and so on. That's all very superficial and not, by any means, exclusive to cissy (heh) women. I love all that stuff, even did it for a living. So do a lot of men who are not trans or gay. It's gender performance for women, and it's also an art form. Interior design; sewing; cookery - also factors within gender performance for women, and also creative paths which men adopt as well without compromising their gender identity.

Some parts of those discussions went deeper. There was a lot of talk about childbirth and early baby bonding. I haven't experienced it, but can easily believe it's the ultimate coming-together of body, mind & purpose as regards biological sex & gender. Some women - me included - said we have only felt "womanly" during sex. Again, this is a biological function during which hormones are released en masse. The "feeling like a woman" is biologically prompted and is a passing phenomenon, not a long-term identity.

Then there was stuff about feeling all little and fragile next to some strapping man. As a strapping woman, I rarely experience this but can identify to an extent if I cast my mind back to the rare occasions when I've met a friendly giant. It feels kind of nice - and has curiosity value for me - but it also makes me a tad nervous, as the physical disparity means I am in fact vulnerable. This last part might be my feministy side speaking, particularly as I have much experience with violent men. But I suspect most little women feel vulnerable quite often. That's not a celebration of one's sex or gender.

Sorry for yet another incoherent brain dump ... this thread and all the associated reading have brought me to a conclusion. I don't believe in gender identity. Sorry, trans folks. The transwomen I've known (very many, but in a different culture) didn't either. They had trans identity. They were necessarily clued-up about gender politics in their society, and what we had in common - more than eyeliner, etc! - was that we were all gender critical. I think the transwomen for whom gender identity is important are just insufficiently informed on gender issues. I know this is an unpopular opinion. I want to thank everyone, particularly on this thread, for all the input

The only thing I know about menopause is from 2 women I work with who like to regale me with stories when I bump into them in the ladies!

Which incidentally was the thing that made me realise that although I didn't think I utilised any female only space, made me realise that actually I do. Many women wouldn't natter on about menopause symptoms and stuff so openly if there were blokes around. Interesting. Taken for granted, I guess, you'd notice if it were gone I think. Women and girls do talk and act differently when there are no blokes around, I think. Having made a point of paying attention, the last few months.

I'll have a look at angela carter (although I don't know if I could manage a "proper" book at the moment!).