So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

Correct link www.new scientist.com/article/dn20032-transexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

[Quiero]

That article is ridiculous in my mind. You need to distinguish between societal gender stereotypes and liking things that society tells us are for girls...and being a girl. When a story mentions what colour lunchbox a child will be allowed it loses all credibility.

My daughter wouldn't wear an Elsa costume, hates anything pink, wears a Spider-Man costume most days, plays football and wants in her words "to be a cool guy" when she grows up.

I wouldn't for a second think there was something wrong with the alignment between her gender and sex. She just likes what she likes and thankfully is young enough not to feel pressured into fitting a societal norm.

That is a little boy who enjoys princesses and wearing dresses. It is not a girl. That parent, whilst it's great she's letting him wear what he wants would be much better off explaining that liking pink and standing with your hands on your hips does not make you a girl . She needs to make him feel happy wearing what he wants, crossing gendered boundaries whilst also feeling proud to a boy.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

With the greatest respect to those who seem not to believe true transsexuals exist, your starting point seems to be that you or your kids never felt that way.
Which is a bit like someone with vision telling a blind person they must be able to see because they have eyeballs.
If gender is in some ways a societal structure, I very much doubt the transsexual population would have put themselves through what they have over the years.
I suspect some here feel they are mentally ill and would perhaps advocate electric shock treatment like the good old days.

[Todayisnottheday]

My son was like this. For a long time he would sob that he wanted to be a girl. Wanted feminine clothes and hairstyles. I just let him get on with it. Explained that being a girl or boy was something he didn't need to worry about until he was older and left it there (no discussion about changing anything but also no insistence that sex was carved in stone).

He's now a pubescent boy, happy in his own skin and confident in who he is (as much as any teen is!). He hasn't yet defined himself in terms of sexuality.

Young children say and do all sorts, you shouldn't begin to define a child by their actions when tiny. They change so much, so fast it's ridiculous to even try. Just keep an open mind and support them, like every other aspect of their life.

[FloraFox]

coco All foetuses start out as female, and in the ones that are to be boys, changes start to occur.

This is untrue. How do you think "the ones that are to be boys" comes about?

[YonicScrewdriver]

Thanks for the link, coco. I wonder if any further research has been completed since that 2008 study.

[YonicScrewdriver]

Flora, I think coco is referring to the fact that the basic foetal structure has features like nipples.

Of course all foetuses, apart from those With chromosomal intersex conditions, are XX or XY so it's incorrect to say even a four cell organism is "female" before it develops as "male"

[YonicScrewdriver]

" would perhaps advocate electric shock treatment like the good old days"

Straw person - no one has said this but you.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

so the mother is doing the right thing according the the expert Dr

when has been selling your childrens lives to the media been considered doing the right thing for them

so what he is dressing up in princess dresses at 4 means nothing but it gains attention for the mother more than anyone else

[FloraFox]

People who argue there is a biological basis for transsexualism seem quite blinkered about where that line of thinking leads. You might find a biological cause for transsexualism but surely the conclusion would be that transsexuals have a type of intersex conditions, not that MTTs are actually women. You can't say an MTT is a woman due to biology being the length of an androgen receptor while ignoring the very obvious reasons the are not women due to biology being the presence of a penis and testes, chromosomes, Adam's apple, prostate gland, facial hair, flat chest, muscle and bone structure and every other biological point of difference between women and men.

[FloraFox]

Yonic I figured she was talking about the undifferentiated sexual development of an early stage foetus. It's a basic mistake commonly stated by the biology-trans lobby but it's still untrue. The chromosomal make-up comes from the sperm and therefore a male foetus is male from conception.

[scallopsrgreat]

I am well aware of the research Coco. Thanks. Still don't think there is any evidence for a male/female brain. As Flora stated.

[WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid]

Coco said

the latest science shows that the brains of transsexual people are much closer in areas of development to the gender they identify with

Which isn't exactly the same as a black and white - there is a female brain and a male brain.

[PandasRock]

I have a 3 year old boy who loves all things sparkly, princesses, glittery and 'girly'. He also adores his big sister (which is where some of it comes from - copying her and wanting the same - although a fair amount is just a preference for bright colours and pretty things).

He can wear what he likes as far as I am concerned, and play with what he likes. We have a houseful of all sorts of toys (he is the youngest of 5) and he can pick and choose, as can his older siblings. This doesn't make him a girl, despite him saying things like 'I'm a girl like dd2' when dressed up in one of her old dresses and associated bling. Or 'I'm a princess like rapunzel' when he manages to get his hands in dd2's covered princess hair accessories. He recently spent a very long time in a shoe shop deliberating between shoes - his dilemma was between Frozen sparkly flashing shoes, Cinderella sparkly flashing shoes, or just glittery silver/lilac/pale blue shoes. (He chose the Frozen ones - flashing won out). The assistant in the shoe shop clearly thought we were bonkers and making some sort of statement. We weren't. Ds is just allowed to choose whatever he wants as there is no such thing as 'girls' colours or 'girls' toys/interests, imo.

While being absolutely fine and happy with whatever he chooses, I know he is going to have a tough time when he starts school, and the whole world (seemingly) tells him that he is liking the 'wrong' thing for boys.

The bit in the article that had me raising my eyebrows was when it said that 'by the time he was 18 months old' the mum realised it was serious. Right. So a baby has a preference for a certain colour (or perhaps type of toy which in that house came in 'girls' colours due to older siblings preferences) and becomes attached to it, and by the time said baby is 18 months old, the mum is worrying that this preference is set in stone. What a lot of bollocks. And clearly her reactions have shaped what is happening because, despite being apparently ok with it all, she was worried about choices her 18 month old was making, fgs.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

This all boils down to whether you believe gender is innate or learned. I'm most definitely on the side of innate.
Nature shows across all species that the different genders act / react in different ways. As I presume a lion or a monkey hasn't actually sat down and thought about gender roles, I'm presuming they are going on hard wired instinct.
To the poster who suggested that having a penis etc makes someone a man I suggest you are jumping to very simplified conclusions. Where is the root of gender ie where does it live? In the genitals and physiology? Or the brain?
The majority of research in this area says there are differences between male and female brains, and it's only the more radical feminist lobby who deny this. Why I'm not sure.
The most anyone could say is that the jury is out - have your personal belief by all means, but this isn't as categorical and clear cut as some are so eager to preach.

[ChunkyPickle]

Pandas - that reminds me - DS2 is nearly 2, and he declares that every colour is 'PINK'... except when shown something pink, when he proudly tells me that that is 'ORANGE'

little ones are already all over the place - their heads are little bingo machines with random thoughts popping up all over, how on earth any one can say anything with certainty is beyond me.

[Thefitfatty]

Pandas My 3 year old has to put eye shadow on every morning when I do. He also told me he wants to wear my dresses. I make no assumptions about his gender or sexuality. He's a 3 year old boy who loves his Mummy.

[ChunkyPickle]

I don't think there's a lot that can be sensibly deduced from adult brains on this - it has been proven that the brain changes according to what you do - like this cabbie experiment: www.wired.com/2011/12/london-taxi-driver-memory/

But even the authors of that experiment say that it only tells us that brains change, not why, or if it can happen to anyone.

I saw some gender research on monkeys on the BBC once - they'd declared that saucepans were feminine toys and trucks were male ones and made conclusions on the monkey's gender behaviour based on that - which is obviously crazy, because why would a monkey know what a pan or a truck was even (and that's before the implied suggestion that women must therefore be naturally more suited to frying things!)

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150213112317.htm For the poster who requested more up to date research.

[PandasRock]

Chunky - exactly. Most 3 year olds are hot and cold about everything. Last week all Ds would eat (seemingly) was bananas. This week he hates them. His favourite animal is an elephant, expect when it's a penguin. His is going to be an astronaut when he grows up (wearing a pink spacesuit apparently!), but only when he has finished being a zookeeper. Why would I take anything he says about being a boy/girl as gospel, when he has no clue about certainty in any other area?

[ALassUnparalleled]

I don't think the comparison with the animal kingdom works.

For certain species the male will play a protective, food supplier role, leader of the pack role. For others the male plays no part other than insemination; others mix and share off-spring nurturing roles. None of them have to distinguish between wearing a pink dress or blue trousers.

The mother seems to have some curious thoughts on gender identity/sexual orientation I didn't put dresses on my son and he never asked to wear dresses although we had clothes of every colour. However no way would that awful sweatshirt have been allowed.

Had the mother started an AIBU abouther son wearing a dress very few replies would have said she was wrong. It doesn't mean he is transgender.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

I'm afraid you are picking and choosing your rules of context by defining transsexualism with clothes. That's more to do with transvestism - completely different.
Having a whim about liking a particular food or toy is also completely different i guess from experiencing a constant feeling your brain gender doesn't match the bits of anatomy that grew lower down.

[CocoEnglishChanel91]

Here''s what the eorld renowned UCLA School of Medicine has to say on the matter following their study:
"Transsexual participants needed to self-identify as a MTF transsexual, report no history of hormonal treatment, and declare their intention to undergo estrogen replacement therapy. Their ages ranged between 23 and 72. The researchers processed the brain images and examined the regional thickness of the cerebral cortex, comparing the measurements of the 24 MTF transsexuals with those of 24 age-matched control males.

They found the MTF transsexuals, as compared to the control participants, had thicker cortices (outer layers of their cerebellums), both within regions of the left hemisphere and right hemisphere. "Regional gray matter characteristics in MTF transsexuals are more similar to the pattern found in men (i.e., in subjects sharing biological sex) than in women," the authors wrote. "However, we also noticed that brain characteristics in MTF transsexuals and in control men were not fully identical."

The thicker areas within the left hemisphere of MTF transsexuals included the frontal and orbito-frontal cortex (involved in decision-making), central sulcus, perisylvian regions (helps to process language), and paracentral gyrus; and within the right hemisphere included pre-/post-central gyrus (involved in sense of touch), parietal cortex (integrates sensory information), temporal cortex (involved with visual information), precuneus (concerned with reflections upon self and aspects of consciousness), fusiform, lingual, and orbito-frontal gyrus.

"The current study provides evidence that brain anatomy is associated with gender identity, where measures in MTF transsexuals appear to be shifted away from gender-congruent men," wrote the authors.