So ... Does this indicate that you CAN be 'born the wrong gender'?

[Garrick]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/im-girl-meet-twin-boy-6348318?

Summary: Twins Alfie and Logan, 4yo, are both boys. Logan has insisted on wearing girly clothes, doing girly things, and that he is a girl since the age of two. His mother, who sounds brilliant, reports him wishing his willy would fall off.

I'm somewhat flummoxed. When I were a lass, little boys like this were described as camp (behind their fathers' backs) and, as far as I know, mostly grew up to be camp and fulfilled their rightful destinies. Rather like Ugly Betty's brother.

But this is what some transwomen say they felt like as children, isn't it? And I have rubbished it because I find it hard to believe in gender as an innate feeling. I'm not sure whether I think little Logan proves me wrong

Yes actually you're right, Lass, I found that bit hard to relate to as well. But only personally - I have seen so many of my female friends go through the body-loathing and self discomfort that it does form part of the typical female experience for me. I think the main reason I haven't experienced it personally is because I have never struggled with my weight and because my mum never modelled being unhappy with her body and wasn't interested in fashion so we never had magazines etc around the house.

I also appreciate the point that I didn't say that I felt it summed up what it means to be a (biological) woman - I think I identify with it because it sums up how I feel about gender. That I started off believing trans was about a discomfort with one's bodily sex, and then the confusion comes in when people start talking about gender, because, to me, and to quote from the article:

"...of course, many of the things I like to do and wear are things that are typically aligned with womanhood. But I didn’t come to like those things in a cultural or social vacuum, but against a backdrop of powerful social messages about what kinds of things women ought to like, so it’s no surprise that I should come to like some of these things. And anyway, I don’t feel that these things reflect anything deep, essential or natural about my identity. They are just my tastes and preferences. Had I been raised in a different culture, I might have had different ones, but I would still have been basically the same person.

"Furthermore, just like all other persons, a lot of the stuff I like to do and to wear is not stuff that is stereotypically feminine. A lot of the things I like and enjoy are things that are usually regarded as masculine. Just like everybody else, I’m not a one-dimensional gender stereotype .... Even on those occasions when I consciously and deliberately participate in performing femininity, by wearing makeup or typically feminine clothes, I don’t see this as me expressing my gender identity; rather, I am conforming to...a socially constructed ideal of what woman is. And furthermore, once it’s decoupled from traditional, restrictive notions about what it is appropriate for people of different sexes to do, it’s not clear why it makes sense to call any of this stuff “gender”, as opposed to just “stuff I like” or “my personality”."

Emphasis mine. I cut out a couple of parts which I felt were unnecessary, I haven't changed the message. But this sums up for me how the two parts of the argument or discussion aren't really meeting in the middle, because they are on two totally different planes of existence.

Yes agreed women do act differently in women only spaces.

We've come a long way from the opening premise of this thread.

I'm still not convinced the child in question is doing anything more than expressing a preference for things his mother thinks are suitable only for girls. And that might for all we know be the child's way of expressing a difference from the other twin given the mother started off dressing them identically.

Briefly free of the male gaze, women talk about women stuff - shopping & relationships, but also periods and pregnancy and menopause and all the crappy messy stuff that comes with a biologically female body (unless you're Lass, who is enviably free of it all and only has to shave her legs once a week!)

This is the stuff that angry transwomen want us not to discuss in front of them.

Agreed about the child in the OP, Lass. As ever, my issue begins & ends with pink & blue gender boxes. A boy who like wearing dresses is a boy who likes wearing dresses. I don't see why the hell he shouldn't grow up into a man who likes wearing dresses - that's the order of change I'd like our society to make, instead of medically reinforcing 'gender'.

There was one little point from the beginning of the thread that I wanted to clear up. I called little Logan camp, and said the camp little boys I knew had mostly grown up to be camp. I realised later that most readers assumed I meant camp and gay. I didn't. There are camp straight men - and women; I've been called camp more than once!

Oh my emphasis didn't work, never mind, you can see where I put the stars in if you like.

Garrick I agree with the idea of a man being able to wear dresses and it not being something "progressive" or "taboo". Medically reinforcing gender just seems so frightening and stark when you look at it like that.

Female space is actually really empowering, I've found. It's not just the sense of being able to discuss childbirth, periods, and sex without worrying about offending or titillating somebody in the group, it's the sense of being able to discuss oppression - and often without actively intending or often even realising that you are discussing oppression - and everybody else innately understanding and relating to it. And then the sense of support. Despite what people say about bitchiness and backstabbing in all-female environments, I've never found this - only at school which was a totally mixed one. In my experience, all-female or hugely female-dominated spaces tend to be HIGHLY supportive, with a real sense of community and care about the members. And in some cases they do enact real change in the wider community too. Over the past few months, even before Christmas, well before the coverage in the media an all-female group local to me have been rallying, collecting, organising and delivering donations to a refugee centre, one member even took it upon herself to run a "Christmas shoebox" collection for children in the camp and with money collected from the group bought twelve boys football boots.

I don't think I've ever heard women talking about shopping unless it was an information sharing kind of thing, e.g. where can I buy X, has anybody seen any good Y recently.

It feels to me like women feel unthreatened in all-female groups, which allows the more personal subjects to come out without fear of ridicule or attack, and allows a sense of yes of course I'll help you, without fear of being scammed or lured into a trap. And that really highlights to me just how threatened we do generally feel in mixed company even if we don't feel personally threatened by the men who are around. It's more of a potential threat than an active one, but it silences us. Holy shit.

If I could edit I would now retract shopping comment as it seems somewhat irrelevant and TBH probably not even that true.

YYY, Bertie.

Bertie I absolutely hate the idea that girl's are all bitchy. Boys aren't of course. I read on mn once that all girl's go through a "bitch phase". I hate it.

Sorry I know this isnt really related to the thread but it's one of my pet hates (partly I just hate the word 'bitch') and it seems so accepted by mn.

i do believe people can be born in the wrong body but i do think it is wrong to let them change before 16/18
I have a cousin who use to say the same thing, she was a girl who always wanted "boy toys" ect and she didnt like her breast but she grew up and isn't transgender or a lesbian which everyone thought she would be.