born in the wrong body...a question about transgenderism

[HarveySpectre]

i started this in chat, but no-one replied.

Ive always taken 'born in the wrong body' to be a description of how transgendered people feel.

but ive heard and read it so many times, I am doubting my assumption

is it meant literally...do TG people believe themselves to actually have been born into the wong body??

and if so, how so?

genderidentitywatch.com/transwomen-sexualized-violence/

Trans women do rape women

Violent crime comited by mtf tg people is at the same rate as men

There is no reason to think they are less of a threat than men

No one thinks every man is dangerous. The point is you cant tell which are

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

The study of outcomes of everyone who has undergone medical transition in Sweden.

Transwomen commit crime at the same rate as men. Trans men commit crime at a higher rate than women but at a lower rate than men and transwomen.

and if nothing is gender specific, then there can't be gender dysphoria - body, sure, gender, which is purely a social construct, no.

And if there is nothing (interests, likes, jobs etC) that are gender specific. Then the only difference between men and women is one of biology. So when a man 'feels like a woman' what does that even mean? If someone wants to identify as a woman, but doesn't want to alter their male body, why do they need to be classed as a woman? If we could get past the ridiculous gender stereotypes, we could all just be and do what we want.

Do you seriously think that clothing and toy preferences are gender-specific? And if not, I'm not entirely sure how you want me to respond. (Apologies if I'm being slow, I'm very tired

Definitely not. I wonder what you think are gender specific things.

The first signs of gender dysphoria can appear at a very young age. For example, a child may refuse to wear typical boys' or girls' clothes, or dislike taking part in typical boys' or girls' games and activities.*

Here.

OK for some reason half my post is missing!

That is a quote from an Nhs page on gender dysphoria that I've linked to. It says on there that gender dysphoria is also known as transgenderism. That to me is saying that there are gender specific interests and the like. (I don't agree with this).

Why on earth would you ask this question on the feminism board, instead of going somewhere specifically for transgender people?

There is a LBTG Parents section on here - why don't you ask them? Given that there is a school of thought within Radical Feminism which is quite hostile towards transgendered women this does seem like a very strange choice of place to come with your question.

It's a bit like me going onto a forum for Vegetarians and asking them how it feels to be a Butcher.

This is the place, that I know, which has the most discussion around TG issues

If you wanted to go to a trans site, Julia Serano's writing is quite specific. She's clear on differences between trans sexual and trans gender, and discusses them, which is relevant to your question I think.

She's also clearer sometimes on what she considers women's personality traits to be, and while people may disagree that there should be any such thing, at least it is an actual answer that isn't a. playing with dolls and liking pink or b. the circular a woman is a person who identifies as a woman.

a child may refuse to wear typical boys' or girls' clothes, or dislike taking part in typical boys' or girls' games and activities

Yes that's gender dysphoria but does nit fitting into a social constructed role mean that person is a member of the opposite sex?

The first half of my post disappeared.

That was a quote from an NHS page on gender dysphoria and no of course it doesn't make someone a member of the opposite sex.

As gender is socially constructed there will only be a small number of people who truly fit into just one gender. Gender dysphoria doesn't make sense to me in any way.

I don't think people saying 'born in the body' are talking about a difference between internal gender identity and biological sex. Lots of trans people who have an internal gender identity 'different' to their sex like their bodies.

'Born in the body' is referring to people who a. experience distress when they think about sexed elements of their body or other people draw attention to them and b. find that distress is alleviated if they are treated as if they are of a different biological sex.

Many people who are not trans experience that distress, and many people who are trans do not. But people who experience that distress and find it (partially) alleviated by being treated as another sex are trans. People who don't find that being treated as another sex alleviates their distress are not.

And I think 'born in the wrong body' is mostly used by people who are not trans to describe that distress, because dysphoria about sex is the kind of traditional type of trans experience that more people are familar with than the gender identity idea.

i would like to abolish every trace of gender as a social construct. it is a pile of crap used to oppress people from being their natural selves.

"Society says I am biologically female because I have female genitalia."

Actually, English language says you are female because you fit the dictionary definition of "female": the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes. Example: a herd of female deer.

Being male or female has nothing to do with how you feel. It's about what you are.

As I said on the other thread, these discussions would be significantly clearer if we all took a minute to look up the dictionary definitions of these words that we are debating over.

BlackRider yes, how do we tell? those of us trying to be accepting, inclusive etc - google it: there are lots of cases of born males dressed in women's clothes both deliberately as a disguise and genuine trans

I consider my gender to be woman because I think of myself as a woman.

Surely you think of yourself as a woman because you are an adult human female. "woman" is a concept of sex not gender. Feminine is a concept of gender - the behaviours associated with women. But the association is social and changeable. Having the characteristics of "woman" is biological and not changeable.

What confuses me is men that say they want to be women never have fantasies about being pregnant or breastfeeding. Instead they seem to want to identify with stereotypes such as a young sexualized woman or an older woman with a handbag and twinset. It seems a fetish rather than a biological drive to be a biological woman.

heylilbunny, I can assure you that many Trans women would love to be pregnant and breastfeed. Calling being Trans a fetish is really fucking offensive and insulting.

One thing I don't get is transwomen like Bruce Jenner, who previously didn't find anything wrong with happily using their penises in the traditional male fashion, notably to impregnate women multiple times.

I can't reconcile that with the whole story that transwomen are born the way they are, have always thought they were women and a reincarnation error landed their immortal feminine souls into those male bodies.

Someone likened the distress of being transgender to a woman waking up one morning and finding a penis attached to their body. I don't know what I would do if that ever happened, but one thing I wouldn't do is go stick it into a woman, repeatedly and over many years. That sounds very much like he was comfortable with his male body and enjoyed using it in ways that nature intended it to be used.