born in the wrong body...a question about transgenderism

[HarveySpectre]

i started this in chat, but no-one replied.

Ive always taken 'born in the wrong body' to be a description of how transgendered people feel.

but ive heard and read it so many times, I am doubting my assumption

is it meant literally...do TG people believe themselves to actually have been born into the wong body??

and if so, how so?

Humans are sexually dimorphic in the vast majority of cases.

Female is a biological descriptor of a person born with XX chromosomes and generally means that that person has female primary and secondary sexual organs.

Woman is a word which is defined as meaning an adult human female.

Feminine is descriptive of a series of behaviors, norms and mores imposed on women and girls by society, to which those women and girls are expected to conform. This is their gender role.

Gender is socially constructed. Sex is biological.

You can feel like a woman all you like, it doesn't make you one in some magical way, nor does it mean that society has to react to you as if you were one. Most people, out of good manners, will not misgender someone who wishes to present as female. However, there are no women who have penises, apart from a small number of intersex people who identify as female, but who also have some male anatomy.

Gender dysmorphia is a recognised and fairly well documented phenomenon. It would be very stupid not to 'believe' in it, and I've come across very few people who don't believe it exists.

The problem with discussing this topic is that, instead of looking at the evidence, people stand on silencing tropes and from there accuse others of erasure and other ridiculous things. You can't erase people by disagreeing with them. You might upset them, but that doesn't erase them either.

I predict however, that this discussion won't go well.

"Ive always taken 'born in the wrong body' to be a description of how transgendered people feel... do TG people believe themselves to actually have been born into the wong body?? and if so, how so?"

Reincarnation mistake? You are right, it does sound like a religion.

The whole trans movement does have quite cultish overtones - transgenderreality is a good for showcasing the recruiting and indoctrination that goes on in transgender forums.

A post operative MTF is not a woman in sex in any way whatsoever.

As far as I can see, 'woman' encompasses the mental, societal and gender aspect of femininity but 'female' is a biological descriptor for having XX chromosomes

I completely disagree. A woman is an adult human female. Concepts of femininity are socially constructed and change from time to time and place to place. They are not and should not be part of the definition of "woman".

Do you think there is an alternative conversation somewhere, where men are talking about expanding their definition of 'men' and manhood to include transmen? Because otherwise they are being exclusionary and transphobic?

I have to agree with Flora on this - Female - biological, Girl - child who is female, Woman - adult who is female. Feminine - socially constructed behaviours of females.

So Female, Girl, Woman are clearly defined as rooted in biology, not feelings. Femininity, is social - anyone can be as feminine as they like.

I say this because if I take Rolodex's definition, I'm not a woman, yet I am an adult human female, and I was a human female child. Redefining the word to make me not a woman, but to make someone who isn't biologically female a woman seems ridiculous.

call yourself feminine, call yourself a transwoman, and life your life however you want but taking away my descriptor in order to use it for your own has to be wrong.

It's idiotic to fail to see that being a woman is a material reality. It's also apparently transphobic to suggest a transwoman must be on hormones to be considered a woman. And hormones do not necessarily render a penis unusable. There was a MTF arrested at an airport last year who demanded a transfer to a woman's prison despite saying on his blog that women should realise that having his penis inside them is different to having a man's penis inside them. Do you think it is idiotic to point out the problem with this?

Is the sense of wrongness like a hatred of their physical genitalia? That's what I always thought being 'born in the wrong body' must mean but I don't know. Is it different to someone who hates the shape of their nose and has a nose job?

I get confused when it's about say for example a born girl who prefers action man to barbie, and trousers and short hair to skirts and long hair. I have heard these types of things used as examples of early signs that someone is trans. That makes no sense to me.

Joyful you can't be serious?

Joyful and the transwomen who do not take hormones or undergo surgery (as is their choice) who identify as women and wish to access women-only spaces?
I, personally, don't have a problem with anyone using whatever bathroom or changing room they feel most comfortable in; but I don't speak for all women and know some women would be very unhappy and uncomfortable in that situation. But I take a bit of umbridge that rather than tackle the actual problem - that people find living within strict gender role stiffling and oppressive, and that when people deviate from these roles they are often victims of male violence and social sanction, instead of saying 'you can be a man who likes things we've decided are feminine' we say 'you are in the wrong body'. And then the women who have spent their lives trying to fight their way out of the restrictive gender stereotypes that have been used to oppress us, are told that being a woman can be reduced down to a feeling and liking wearing dresses and makeup and not wanting to do science? It's insulting to everyone. And you can't have a conversation about it, because then you are transphobic.

Like almost every single feminist I have ever spoken to, I want transwomen to live long, happy lives. Free from violence, happy in who they are, without facing discrimination, able to go about their lives as all of us want to. I just don't think that the what the (very vocal) more extreme transactivists are doing at the moment, is going to achieve that. Or if it does achieve something like it, it's going to do at the great expense of other women.

Joyful how can you possibly say that transwoman don't rape women? What is your basis for saying this? Have you done any research or is it based on your friends? It's a pretty sweeping and frankly ridiculous statement.

If you reject that clothes and activities are gender-specific, could you give some examples of things that are gender specific?