born in the wrong body...a question about transgenderism

[HarveySpectre]

i started this in chat, but no-one replied.

Ive always taken 'born in the wrong body' to be a description of how transgendered people feel.

but ive heard and read it so many times, I am doubting my assumption

is it meant literally...do TG people believe themselves to actually have been born into the wong body??

and if so, how so?

Tibbysmum, actually the sexual element is really strong for many transgender people. See: transgenderreality.com/tag/fetish/

You can also go to reddit/r/asktransgender and search for "fetish", there are tons of posts talking about how they get bones from wearing women's panties.

Ahem. "Bones" should be "boners".

A sexed body just means we're talking about elements of the body which are obviously sexed, as opposed to people who feel dysphoric about things to do with their body which aren't about biological sex - weight, aesthetics etc. So someone with a female body might be very distressed about having breasts, having periods and so on.

Those are feelings of dysphoria, but they are about sexed elements of the body. Lots of people have dysphoria about the sexed elements of their body, not just trans people.

I can't explain how people who feel their gender identity doesn't match their biological sex but are happy with their body feel, because I don't have a gender identity and don't know what one feels like.

"A transsexual is a person in which the sex-related structures of the brain that define gender identity are exactly opposite the physical sex organs of the body".

This is bullshit. There is no scientific evidence for this.

Transgender is an umbrella term which includes transsexual people.

It is a sub set.

"A sexed body just means we're talking about elements of the body which are obviously sexed"

Are you trying to say norks & fanjo?

Otherwise, ALL parts of our bodies are sexed. Every cell anywhere in my body has female DNA.

lass umm, I said absolutely nothing about any kind of 'treatment'

But I am guessing by the tone of your post you think it is offensive to suggest that it might be a psychological state? That it is much more logical and likely that the mind is an independent entity with its own sex, that enters a human body (when?) and sometimes the body it enters has the opposite sex organs? Am I understanding you correctly? Is that what you mean?

Returning to the 'trratment' issue; the truth is I don't have any interest. I feel sympathy for TS people. But I don't relate to their issues. And I don't want to adopt their issues. They are entirely different to and separate from women's issues

I have tended to think of transgender as being similar to body dysmorphic disorder, in that something about the body becomes shameful and unacceptable, possibly for completely unconscious reasons, and from a very young age. I realise this is not the "correct" view to have though. And it is often quoted that homosexuality was defined as a mental disorder until 1974, and perhaps we will look back at Gender dysphoria in a similar way in future, i.e. not as a psychological disturbance.

I heard Germaine Greer speak quite recently and she was quite disparaging on this topic, she said something like, if I always felt I wanted to identify as a cocker spaniel, would that make it valid?

"I can't explain how people who feel their gender identity doesn't match their biological sex but are happy with their body feel"

You haven't answered my question.

Are we not made to believe that gender dysphoria causes extreme distress, and those poor transfolk are just SO miserable that they must be given all our help and sympathy and hard-earned rights to safety among other females ? How come those other transpeople are perfectly fine feeling "like woman" in their obviously and typically male bodies?

Cote, but people don't normally go around feeling distressed about DNA they can't see or feel. People get distressed about areas of their bodies they can see or feel.

"I always felt I wanted to identify as a cocker spaniel, would that make it valid?"

If a person identifies as a transdog, I would show him nothing but respect and call him "it" and not "he", as per his preferred trans-species identity. Transdogs should be free to seek happiness and change their bodies in a way that will make them happy. I fully support transdogs' right to walk on four legs, hire plastic surgeons to transplant fur on their skin etc.

But if one says it finds my dog attractive and tries to hump her, that's where I draw the line.

Be whatever you like in your head, but you get the boot when your self-image issues start to interfere with others' rights and liberties.

"Cote, but people don't normally go around feeling distressed about DNA they can't see or feel. People get distressed about areas of their bodies they can see or feel."

You say you can't see or feel your nose?

I have several friends who were so distressed about their noses that they had surgery, which involves breaking the nose and is apparently very painful.

Cote, I think most people on this board who are trans critical have stated they understand that trans people suffer a huge amount because people who do not conform to gender roles are treated really badly by society.

That remains the case regardless of whether or not they are dysphoric about their body, surely.

If someone male puts a dress and makeup on, which society deems part of the female gender role, they will get a huge amount of hassle, regardless of whether or not they like having a penis.

And while I know a lot of trans supporters will say, I don't really know how to explain this gender identity thing, it's just a feeling, I would take a wild guess that they really mean traditional masculinity and femininity.

Yes you can see your nose, and people get dysphoria about noses. But noses don't look male or female.

Harvey all I was trying to establish was what you saw as the difference between a transexual person and a transgendered person as you raised the distinction.

"I don't really know how to explain this gender identity thing, it's just a feeling"

So is psychosis. So is paranoid schizophrenia. Yet they can be explained and understood, the brain processes understood.

What is so special about "I'm male but feel I must be female" sort of feeling that can't be properly defined or understood?

"trans people suffer a huge amount because people who do not conform to gender roles are treated really badly by society"

Not just that. I'm led to believe that transpeople suffer because their body isn't how it should be and they would suffer thus even if they were to live alone on an island, with no society to mistreat them.

lass I don't accept there is such a thing as gender. There are stereotypes. Not conforming with the stereotype associated with your sex, doesn't make you the opposite sex.

i don't conform to a female stereotype, it doesn't mean I'm a man!

That just reinforces stereotypes

If you are going to have gender as a thing, which trans people do then it is totally illogical to keep conflating it with 'sex'

If you want to dress as a woman then just do it. But don't think that makes you a woman

Its really insulting, you expect people to swallow that

Cote, that's true for some trans people but not others.

I assume you mean "you" in a general sense. I'm not asking anyone to "swallow" anything

You raised the distinction between the 2 . I asked you what that distinction meant for you. I'm still not clear how you are differentiating them.

I don't think the lack of clarity is in my camp tbh!

Fine. As far as I can make out then transexuals have a psychological disorders and you have some sympathy for them but transgendered people just annoy you.

Harvey, I have read a lot of these threads, and I do understand what trans critical feminists are saying about sex and gender, but I am struggling to understand your point or what it is you want to know, and if it is about trans people in general or a specific group of them.

And I mean that in a non confrontational way, honestly.

As far as I'm aware, usually the 'born in the wrong body' phrase is just something people who aren't trans to refer to feelings of dysphoria about the body and their alleviation.

Sorry, 'is just something people who aren't trans say to refer to..

is what that last paragraph should have said.

Thanks almonds you put what I was trying to say much better.