born in the wrong body...a question about transgenderism

[HarveySpectre]

i started this in chat, but no-one replied.

Ive always taken 'born in the wrong body' to be a description of how transgendered people feel.

but ive heard and read it so many times, I am doubting my assumption

is it meant literally...do TG people believe themselves to actually have been born into the wong body??

and if so, how so?

I think most 'transgendered' people are transsexual. If they feel 'in the wrong body' and want to grow breasts/have penises remove, then that is transsexual...not transgendered

People who 'correctly' identify as 'transgendered' are happy with their male bodies and genitalia...they want to dress as woman, have everyone refer to them as 'she', access female spaces etc because they feel female; but not female sex just gender...yes, that annoys me. It is contradictory and nonsensical

because gender IS MADE UP! we are not segregated on the basis of gender, we are segregated on the basis of sex. Female only spaces are for female sexed people. Female is a word used to describe the sex of a person

Feminine, is the word used to label the 'gender' stereotype, usually associated with women. If a person is 'transgendered' then they would be seeking to be 'feminine' not female. And that doesn't involve access to female spaces etc

On the basis of 'gender' i would be excluded from the ladies lavs! And then where would i deposit my soiled sanitary towels??

almond I am asking whether 'being trapped in the wrong body' is meant metaphorically or literally

The question is open to anyone, as it is a public forum. I was hoping for answers from people with some insight

Thank you. That makes sense.

What was confusing is your opening post says " I've always taken 'born in the wrong body' to be a description of how transgendered people feel'

From your explanation above that would make such a person a transexual.

Ok, yes I see that now
But it is what people who call themselves transgendered say

So, again I'm passing the buck on confusion and lack of clarity....

I can't remember the stats, but most transgender people don't have surgery.

I assume that most transgender people do have dysphoria about their bodies, but many of them aren't comfortable with surgery. I can understand that as there are people with other kinds of dysphoria who don't go for surgery, due to worry about the risks, fear of surgery etc.

For the trans people who don't have surgery and perceive gender as being stereotypes of masculine and feminine, maybe they just think it is possible to be happier by saying they are a woman rather than a feminine man in society. Maybe because there already are lots of women so they'd be joining a large group rather than being different? I don't know.

For trans people who feel an internal sense of gender identity but don't explain what a gender identity is, I don't know. I keep waiting for someone to explain it. I think people who refer to themselves as cis and claim to have an internal gender identity should explain what they mean.

It can't be that abstract that it cannot be put into words. Religious people will have a go at explaining what it feels like to experience God, and having a gender identity can't be more abstract than that.

I agree that changing rooms etc were segregated on the basis of sex. I understand some people want to be segregated on the basis of gender, but that is going to leave a whole load of people who don't have a gender with nowhere to get changed instead. As society can't reach an agreement, I suggest phasing out communal facilities and putting in single person changing etc wherever possible.

Wouldn't a much more honest discussion go along the lines of:

MTF TG person: I'm really feminine, I love wearing lipstick and high heels and macrame. I'm scared of going in the men's toilets because men feel threatened by my self-expression and can get violent. Can I use the ladies?

Feminists: Oh gawd, go on then...

MTF TG person: And can I attend your women only college?

Feminists: No, bugger off

Well, yes, women let feminine gay men into women's spaces all the time. I do it.

But there are obviously a lot of other things going on around feelings about gender for people who call themselves trans and cis.

If people want to get changed in the same room because they all have the same feeling that defies description, that's up to them. As long as I don't have to make a choice between being the indescribable male or indescribable female room when I have no idea what any of them mean or why this matters in a changing room.

I'm not sure that I am entirely understanding the question op. Im even less sure I can convey my thoughts. However, when talking about conditions such as dysmorphophobia or anorexia there is sometimes a debate about whether the belief is a psychotic/delusional belief or an overvalued/very strong idea. By psychotic I mean a fixed belief as something as strong as the belief that grass is green not red. Overvalued being belief that is not so fixed.

Is that what you mean?

almond Can I try to explain?

I'd never heard of "cis" until a few months'ago. It's not an expression I like but I suspect I am a text book cis heterosexual woman for those who would use the definition.

I probably do think I have an internal gender identity. Someone posted that if they suddenly grew a penis they'd still be the same person. I wouldn't. I would be horrified. I would not be me.

I obviously am a biological xx woman. I am also and always have been very feminine. Other than a few years of occasionally wearing, and not particularly liking, jeans I have never worn non feminine clothes. I would never buy any garment which could be worn by a man without looking odd.

Yeah I know, I know it's just social conditioning. I've been told "I'm performing feminity "(which I have to say in passing I find very patronising and dismissive. A performance is put on- Helen Mirren performed beautifully as The Queen and Bruno Ganz was a brilliant Hitler. I am not performing - this is me, who I am and want to be )

Does that make sense? I suppose yes I would say I strongly identify as and like being feminine.

Yes, I completely understand that, and I am a big fan of people being feminine.

You're a feminine woman. There are also masculine women and androgynous women.

But lots of people who have a gender identity say it is not about masculinity and femininity.

I am rather tired - I would also like to say I dont intend to offend anyone. I know words like psychotic can mean all kinds of things to people but I'm using it in a techical sense only and there are a number of problems potentially even then. The whole definition of delusion would be a fixed firmly held false belief out of keeping with cultural norms.

Theres questions about whether gender dysphoria is within cultural norms, not to mention the debate about whether describing this particular issue in 'illness' terms is the right thing to do although psychotic does not necessarily equate to mental illness. Then there are the difficulties in whether there is a valid difference anyway between very strong abnormal beliefs and true psychosis before finally the practical difficulties of deciding which is which in any particular case.

I'd be betting its different for different people - sometimes overvalued ideas and sometimes a belief of delusional intensity.

We don't talk much about ftm but for me changing my female body to male would be horrific. Whatever drives that decision whatever it is called must be very powerful.

It seems like such an illusion too, perhaps even a con. You can't change sex, you can only have treatment to change your body to have less obviously your born sexual characteristics and to gain approximations of the opposite sexual characteristics. My understanding is that a relatively large proportion of those that transition are not satisfied, and still suffer from significant mental health issues, and that doesn't seem surprising at all.

On the mind/body thing I think that there are religious like elements to the thinking. Recently I took a very interesting course in Neuroeconomics, which focused on understanding brain processes. One thing that has been discovered is that often you can see measurable changes in the brain before the point at which people are conscious of having made the decision to act. One of the discussion topics was about whether this meant there was no such thing as free will. I thought this was quite bizarre as it meant somehow dividing yourself into having a sort of soul type mind, separate from the physical brain.

I am my physical self (whether I like it or not!), I am my brain and my body, influenced by a whole load of external society type stuff and a whole load of chemical genetic type stuff. I can see if you don't feel that way then you might well be subject to a whole load of internal conflict.

I really like this:

'Gender is a system that ties certain desirable personality traits and behaviours to reproductive function. As soon as we detach these traits, behaviours and forms of appearance from biological sex, what we have is simply human personality, in all its variety and complexity. For this reason, every single one of us is non-binary. None of us is a walking gender stereotype. Gender is not just the name we give to the set of tastes, preferences, and dispositions that an individual happens to have. It is a system that ties biology to personality and behaviour, and puts people into pink and blue boxes according to the set of genitals they possess. The solution to that is not to create ever more boxes, nor to allow that some special non-binary individuals get to be gender revolutionaries who are able to move between the boxes at will, while the rest of us must stay put, and are told that we like it that way. The solution is to get rid of the boxes – to abolish gender altogether.'

From the Slave of the Passions: slaveofthepassions.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/what-i-believe-about-sex-and-gender-part-3/

Interesting interview thing with various trans people. Things You've Always Wanted To Ask a Trans Person... But Probably Shouldn't

I have a gender identity. I feel strongly that I am a woman, not just a female human. It's hard to describe what it feels like because I have always felt it (I was a girl before I was a woman).
That's the point isn't it? I developed my gender identity as I started to understand that I am female, that others call me a girl and what being a girl means in this society. My gender identity is formed purely by my lived experience as a girl and woman in the world. My gender identity is inextricably linked to my female sex and experience as a female human for 34 years.
I don't believe it's possible to develop the gender identity of a woman whilst having the lived experience of being male, growing up as a boy and man. It's completely possible to feel uncomfortable with your gender identity and feel that it doesn't fit who you want to be - if you are a gender non conforming man or woman then chances are macho culture or pretty dresses won't fit with your inner self at all, but that doesn't mean you have an 'opposit gender' identity. In my opinion. That just means you reject traditional gender roles and behaviour and that's fine.

"When did you know you were transgender?"

"All my life I've been told 'you can't do that, you're a boy', 'you can't like that, you're a boy'"

The psychological impact of being fed this nonsense from the people who love and raise you must be profound.

Fox in that video was on my final year university course

nooka that quote sums up my feelings on gender.

Hello everyone. We've had a few reports about this thread, and having a read of it now we can understand why.

We completely understand the difficulties that surround transgender debate, and we welcome all view points on this subject.

That being said, we would like to ask that everyone keeps their posts civil, as is the spirit of Mumsnet. We don't want to stifle discussion by removing posts, but if we see anything that we feel goes beyond the pale, we will be stepping in.

Thanks everyone.

I am really disappointed that the BBC didn't include any question on gender as a social construct; it is such a glaring omission and a lost opportunity .

I posted this scientific paper on the other thread. It states there is little scientific basis for the popular idea that mtf are women trapped in men's bodies: biology & med

I posted this on the other thread. I think it might explain why we hear so little about ftm. It's a calm, lucid explanation of a process which took years.

ftmtransition.com -- Ethan Daniel www.ftmtransition.com/index.html (Share from CM Browser)

BigChoc - that is a very interesting article, thanks for posting that.