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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can men be feminists?

224 replies

Vivacia · 03/12/2014 21:56

Inspired by another thread!

I've just read the claim that men can never really be feminists. I disagree. Would be fascinated, and grateful, to read others' thoughts on this.

OP posts:
MN164 · 11/12/2014 17:21

Buffy

IMO feminism is fatally doomed if we "wait" for men to get it on their own. Self interest alone will mean the majority of men will keep things just the way they are now.

How much success has any woman here had with their feminist action, measured by "converts", i.e. taken a latent misogynist and got them to see the light?

Of those success stories how many were "sugar coated" man friendly approaches vs, not sure how to put this but "shouting back"?

I suppose I'm just commenting on the efficacy of feminism at reaching it's target rather than the cause itself.

scallopsrgreat · 11/12/2014 17:25

Why would we waste our energy trying to convert a latent misogynist? That isn't going to get us anywhere.

Stating want we want and need and fighting for that is going to get us what we want.

Feminism's target isn't men. It's women.

scallopsrgreat · 11/12/2014 17:30

Actually it's a bit more nuanced than the target being women. The target is women's liberation. But it is a movement for and about women. This insistence that men have to be a part of it is just distracting. It uses up women's energy that could be better placed elsewhere.

BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 11/12/2014 17:40

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Dervel · 11/12/2014 17:54

Well I've given all of this a great deal of thought over the time I have been engaging with feminism, that's no guarantee I have anything valuable to say but here goes anyway.

Initially I struggled acutely with this notion of patriarchy, not so much with wether it existed or not, but specifically with how it applied to me personally. I am undoubtedly privileged, and not only because I am a man, and I am no stranger to self examination. Yet something jarred in the back of my mind.

Ultimately it boils down to this simple fact: I am a man, but I am not a patriarch. Now I am not saying this to absolve myself of the social conditioning that I still possess, but I feel it's an important distinction.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed above that in terms of feminism I don't have the lived experiences that women have, how can I after all? However the reverse must also be true, that no woman has my male lived experiences either. It then also becomes difficult experientially at least to accurately define who has it worse. I would say objectively it's women, just by looking at the domestic violence, sexual violence, pay disparity, underrepresentation etc.

Enter now the MRA's who I would like to define, tentatively at least as men who have also suffered under patriarchy. Something trully sinister has then occured in that somehow we arrived at an illusionary adversarial relationship between feminists and MRAs. Patriarchy has pulled off a classic divide and conquer tactic, and are simply allowing it to fester and do all the hard work for them.

Feminists (or women in general) can't by definition be the root of all their ills, because as a class women are not represented adequatedly in the corridors of power, the boards of large companies and so on and so forth. As a short term measure it might be wise to become allied with feminism to dismantly patriarchy, because as a movement it has much more momentum and analysis behind it, as evidenced by this post I have had to fall back on personal thoughts and experiences and use I way more than usual.

I think men as a class (those who do not identify as patriarchs at least), need to start having a serious think about how the status quo has affected us, in the same way feminism has for generations. We kind of need our own lightbulb moments.

Vivacia · 11/12/2014 17:55

I know you weren't asking me, but what I think is that I'm glad you unhid the thread!

OP posts:
BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 11/12/2014 18:00

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YonicSleighdriver · 11/12/2014 18:01

Plenty of people with privilege get their privilege when it's pointed out to them - like I notice every website in my sector shows men as the entire board and SMT and tell my DH who hasn't "seen" it. But maybe I don't notice none of them are black, or disabled, until someone points it out to me.

Better to try and reach those who, say, haven't noticed yet. Not those who know they are sexist and positively revel in it.

MN164 · 11/12/2014 18:24

"Feminism's not for men, they're not the arbiters of our success."

IMO - Success is 'all people are treated equally as people.

All people need to live this belief for "success" to happen.

Given how resistant men are to the required change what will "make" them change? Saying that feminists "waste energy" engaging men isn't going to work. That is the very audience that needs to listen. Feminists don't need to convince themselves of their position, they need to convince men of their position being one that men need to adopt. I just don't get how this is a waste or how "success" will happen without it.

BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 11/12/2014 18:25

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BreakingDad77 · 11/12/2014 18:33

Of course I can see where women don't want to engage with men but I don't see not engaging men would work either.

I am aware of participatory development and gender in Asia and Africa which is even more depressing! Programmes to empower women failed where men weren't engaged at all, in addition to expecting women to take on all the burden

Dervel · 11/12/2014 18:35

I think there is an awful lot of mileage in that idea Buffy, but just off the top of my head is there not a possibility that fratriarchy is almost a larval form of patriarchy?

Also the distinctions between public and private is crucial too. I've made a casual studies of historical codes of conduct like the chivalric code and bushido in Japan, and what they all fundementally have in common is it is the "appearence" of virtues is what is paramount, not the actual possessing of them. You can be as brutal, dishonest and generally all round villanous as you like, as long as nobody says you are, and of course if they do you deal with them, violently. It's all encoded in the rites and rituals.

I went to an all boys school and was bullied relentlessly, mainly because I challenged almost everything. We had a latin motto, and generally were supposed to act like gentlemen, but therein lies the problem. We had these wonderful ideals, like sportsmanship, honesty and all that good stuff, but the unwritten rule to that was that all that only applies to those within. If you get what I mean, I've always been of the school of thought (and I was at the time), that if you hold something up as a virtue then it has to be applied to all people, and not just your circle (or fraternity) otherwise you rob it of it's value.

YonicSleighdriver · 11/12/2014 18:36

BreakingDad, it would be soul destroying and a waste of energy to engage with your brother when we could be raising awareness of refuge closures, don'tcha think?

I'm not saying engage with no men, but some tasks are thankless.

Dervel · 11/12/2014 18:39

BreakingDad meaning no disrespect to feminism at all, but I don't think it's really viable for us men to sit there with our thumbs up our collective behinds, waiting for feminism to present us with all the solutions in a nice easy to swallow way.

If we are aware of a problem, which I think an awful lot of us are by now, we need to start taking a bit of responsibility in finding a solution.

YonicSleighdriver · 11/12/2014 18:41

And TBF it's not like all women are feminists so our work is done in that area...

minklundy · 11/12/2014 18:46

What if the engaging with men was done by male feminists? Then they can listen to the grating mansplaining etc. Women can avoid wasting their energy etc.

That's kind of what I see as the role of male feminists to fight the fight in their own gender and not to turn up at patronise women with their version of how it should be done or look for gold stars.

I think men can be feminists but I don't they have any role in telling women how to be feminists.

BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 11/12/2014 18:51

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PuffinsAreFictitious · 11/12/2014 19:23

I suppose the other point is that feminims is hardly a new concept. Mary Wollstonecraft was talking about it in the 18th century.

How would those who advocate that we should 'repackage' feminism for it to appeal to men who 'just don't get it' suggest we do that?

Nearly 300 years of women patiently or not so patiently, nicely or not so nicely, palatably or not so palatably explaining and asking men to join in. Or even to see the problem. And it seems it hasn't worked.

If men wanted to get on board, they just would, no matter what flavour the feminist message has this year. They don't, therefore they simply don't want to, or care much.

YonicSleighdriver · 11/12/2014 19:35

I think CCP asked reasonably nicely about putting a woman on a bank note.

She got rape and death threats.

If a man asked nicely or even not so nicely to put an esoteric interest of his on a bank note (say a campaign to get Douglas Adams on one) - would he get rape threats? I'd be surprised.

And it's hardly like being a woman is an esoteric position...

DeePancrisPandevenistaken · 11/12/2014 19:38

from Dervel

BreakingDad meaning no disrespect to feminism at all, but I don't think it's really viable for us men to sit there with our thumbs up our collective behinds, waiting for feminism to present us with all the solutions in a nice easy to swallow way.If we are aware of a problem, which I think an awful lot of us are by now, we need to start taking a bit of responsibility in finding a solution.

Yes that covers most of it for me (generally love your work, too).

And neither would I expect any oppressed person/people feel any expectation to have to 'educate' the oppressor, so I wouldn't see it as a womans job here.
Besides, ime the 'hard to reach' listen much more to a mans voice than a woman's once out of the very early stages of development (usually mothers) be it peers or authority figures who present as role models and as such problem-solvers, and so theirin lies the apparently unpopular notion of 'responsibility taking'.

DeePancrisPandevenistaken · 11/12/2014 19:43

theirin??

SidCraemer · 13/12/2014 01:46

You could argue that men ought to be stronger feminists. That would put that aggression to good use no? To the extent that true love has been fulfilled in ages past this is the case.

YonicSleighdriver · 13/12/2014 01:47

Wow, Sid, you are busy tonight.

BuffyWithChristmasEarings · 13/12/2014 09:51

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