Can men be feminists?

[Vivacia]

Inspired by another thread!

I've just read the claim that men can never really be feminists. I disagree. Would be fascinated, and grateful, to read others' thoughts on this.

"I quite like myself and I value my own thought processes and ideas". Me too. But I look too like a woman for other people to do so too.

Still, it doesn't stop me.

Ok, another man here de-lurking to share his opinion..

The more I read and think about feminism the more I see how unknowingly steeped in privilege I have been. I thought I was a very modern "new man" but have since realised how many ingrained sexist thought processes I have. I'm trying to improve, but I'm in no doubt that not being a woman and not having that experience is what is making it harder for me to understand. I can only ever be a supporter of feminism.

Funnily enough after the recent birth of my first child, and during my time as a SAHD, I've experienced life in a world where women are dominant. A world where women are thought by some, to be superior to men in their child rearing abilities (a thought that is wrong I'm sure you'll agree.) And a world where I am always in the minority. This time has (dare I say it) given me a tiny (tiny!) insight into what it must be like when the "other" sex has all the advantages of society's expectations. It's definitely helping me become a better Pro-Feminist.

how many ingrained sexist thought processes I have.

You aren't the only one. There are many, many women (as well as men) who have ingrained and conditioned sexist beliefs and thought processes. It is a continual process for everyone to challenge their beliefs and thinking (not only about sexism and feminism), discard those which are harmful, and replace them with beliefs which are more beneficial.

This article has cropped up before on these boards but it seems particularly apt right now... www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-18-editors-blog-i-am-sexist

It depends on what you see as feminism, if its equality then I think men can easily I have not seen any evidence to show a man or woman is any better at doing a job or task over another.

Men are obviously worse as we hold the power but both men and women have to change and get rid of old slurs; female leaders (not 'man' enough) female engineers (probably lesbians), male nurses (probably gay) any male working with children/childcare (creepy).

Maybe in another 100 years we will be growing kids in tanks and how might that change things?

Some of Germaine Greers stuff on procreation I find a bit crazy though.

anticyclone I understand where your coming from, DW's friend always dropping loads of 'mummies know best' etc and tries to muscle in on me when i'm doing things with DS. I have brushed off to her having had a bad partner.

But obviously this pales in comparison with the crap that women have to put up with.

DW's mum also heaps a lot of pressure and expects her to be doing everything in the house compared to sharing.

Maybe I'm going off topic here but it's not as simple as saying men have the power - assuming you mean political power - and women are better suited for some tasks.

You mention male nurses and men in childcare - well they're not always liked because of the risks men pose to women.

I won't believe any man is feminist until he accepts men, specifically some men but by extension collectively, do indeed pose threats to women and children, far more so than women to men, and that we need to tackle that head-on. You seem to be avoiding that point?

Zazzels... Said that many many women also hold sexist beliefs.

As such, can we really blame 'men as a class' for female oppression? Don't women share the blame?

Further ti this. Men hold a disproportionate amount of political power and corporate control... But don't women vote those men into power as much as men do? And don't women equally support the corporations (as consumers who purchase their products) that elect men as their leaders.

Seems to me that a lot of the discrimination isn't 'done' by men as a class, but by a society that is controlled by voters and consumers that are equally male or female.

The basic difference prashad is that women have cause for their sexism. Mine started at 8 yrs old or so.

Men generally don't. It's an ingrained attitude passed down from father to son.

Or is that itself sexist

We can only vote the candidates that present themselves into power in our current 'democracy'. As to why more women don't present themselves, well that's a whole other thread.

Prashad, you do realise that 100 years ago no woman had ever held a seat in parliament in Britain?

Up until Countess Markievicz was elected in 1918, no woman had ever been in British Government. Literally every single person ever making laws and running the country was a man. Full suffrage wasn't granted to women until 1928. So, women as a group have only had a proper say in the running of the country for the last 86 years. On the scale of the history of the UK that's a very short time. It's a single lifetime.

Do you agree then, given that it was men, and only men, that set up the vast majority of the laws that govern our country and ran the country entirely until 1918, that it's fair to say men are mainly responsible for the attitudes, norms and structures of our country today?

Things are changing, definitely, but it's a slow process as women have a lot of time to make up for.

Queen of the rant
By power i mean in general institutions and many women appear to kowtow to it - "I'm feminist but..."

I'm to your statement "women are better suited for some tasks", what would those be?

Curious

WRT women being more suited for some roles, my thoughts aren't clear. I would say that it there is no evidence that men can't make great nurses, teachers, etc., but I do agree that in today's society where men's violence is ignored, excused and covered up there is a risk associated with men being in positions of trust over vulnerable women and children (and also men in some circumstances). So it's a case of balancing the ideal with the the reality, isn't it?
Also, as a survivor of rape I would not engage with any man when dealing with any of the repercussions of what happened, be that in terms of health, emotional wellbeing etc. I would expect always to be dealt with by women.

True MEOD, but would you agree that until the threat of men's violence against women is taken seriously that women should have the absolute right to refuse treatment by men and have that refusal honoured and catered for?

So, women as a group have only had a proper say in the running of the country for the last 86 years. On the scale of the history of the UK that's a very short time. It's a single lifetime.

And you only have to go back a few years earlier to get to the point in history where a married woman had any rights at all.

You can't overcome thousands of years of oppression in one century.

Well of course giving birth lol, and breastfeeding well men can share this task through expressed bottles to get that parenting is a shared role right off the bat.

I would say some men (and gay men I believe pose 0 threat to women), not all have the predisposition to be violent and pose more of a risk than women. Reporting needs to be looked at the whole way through - what do we need to get people to come forward, police failings, why that first punch/slap can get brushed off 'as an accident' but I love him really etc.

I am torn on choice though, as aren't you falling into the trap that a gender is better than another.

With a purely non emotional hat on, a well trained experienced person of any gender and sexual orientation should suffice. But we do fall back on these choices as a society so will we ever change?

I'm interested to know why you believe that gay men pose 0 threat to women BreakingDad? Is it because you feel male violence against women is sexually motivated?

I'm not really clear on what you're asking with your last two questions. Are you saying that allowing choice is part of the problem?