Can men be feminists?

[Vivacia]

Inspired by another thread!

I've just read the claim that men can never really be feminists. I disagree. Would be fascinated, and grateful, to read others' thoughts on this.

vesuvia: When a man does his feminism, does he experience e.g. the dismissal and abuse that female feminists experience on a daily basis etc.? I suspect that the answer is no. Therefore, I think it is more realistic for men to be seen as feminist allies rather than feminists, because men aren't doing feminism as women experience it. The men are doing a type of feminism which is free from the personalised misogyny that comes with feminism for almost all women.

I agree to an extent. When I 'do my feminism' I don't experience personalised misogyny (nor have I, nor could I) but I do experience a sort-of transferred malice, which can range from ridicule to threats of violence and everything in between. My life/career/restaurant meal/etc would be far easier (in the short term) if I kept my mouth shut and didn't challenge sexism. As a man I have the choice of doing nothing with few drawbacks.

I imagine that women don't have such a choice. They either take the continual radioactive damage of being exposed to unchallenged sexism, feeling compromised by ignoring it; or speak out and suffer the personalised misogyny.

I think men can be highly supportive of feminism. In 90% of situations, it's good enough to call that being feminist.

But I do think there are cases where it's simply not possible (and even uncomfortably crass) for men to take on the activist role 'feminist' implies. So, to take an example, most men I know would support women's right to choose, but they would tend to do so by saying 'well, it's her body'. That's an inherently supportive activity: they're (rightly and helpfully) pointing out that the debate is primarily about women.

In that situation, you can see why a man might identify as a feminist ally rather than a feminist, because it makes the point so much stronger.

It is just a good way of reinforcing the basic fact that feminism is about liberating women primarily, and that equality for men should and will depend on that.

"believing that men and women should be equal, recognising that men currently have gender privilege over women, and working to remove that male privilege"

Yy to this.

If we go by the dictionary definition of "feminist", then in theory yes.

But in practice, I can understand why many men and women who advocate gender equality do not wish to label themselves (or be called) a "feminist".

Which 'dictionary definition'?

I get the impression most people judge feminists by what they do and say, not by what a dictionary says anyway.

Falafel has hit the nail on the head for me. Men cannot truly be feminists simply because if it all gets too much they can say "fuck this for a game of soldiers" and head back to their cosy manblanket of privilege. Women just don't have that option. For men, feminism is a matter of sympathy and fellow feeling, it's a charitable act where you choose to forego the privileges of maleness in order to improve the lot of others. For women feminism is about our very identity, safety and survival.
To me it's the same comparison as between a person who lives in a country with no human rights and the European lawyer fighting to improve that. We would never say they were the same. One is suffering, the other understands and is helping.

If they can afford £45 for a T-shirt, sure.

cosy manblanket of privilege

Men who complain about whether men can be called feminists, particularly if they are complaining to or about feminists, are not behaving in a very feminist manner.

Really interesting contributions. I think I'm going to stick with my belief that men can be feminists. It fits my understanding of feminism. It feels the same as how a white person could be a black civil rights activist.

...but also, you've made me aware of some of the constraints(?), conditions(?) associated with being a male feminist.

I think if people accept unconditionally that men can be feminists, it implies acceptance that men should have the same entitlement as any woman or girl to set any feminist agenda. This is potentially harmful to women. I ask any woman, "are you really sure it's a good idea?"

If limits are attached to men being accepted as feminists (rather than allies), the men become second-class feminists.

I hope men can be first-class feminist allies instead of second-class feminists.

I'd be interested to know how people think men ought to engage with feminism. Is it about a mostly passive approach ie not talking very much about feminism or feminist issues to allow women the space to do so, having an attitude of support for feminism without necessarily expressing it loudly or often? Or is there room for a more active male approach to feminism, and if so then what would that look like?

I think there may be two different but subtle questions going on:
Can men be feminists?
Can men call themselves feminists?

I'm a man. As I mentioned in the other thread, I personally don't think I have the right to call myself a feminist no matter how much I supported the movement as a whole, mainly for the reasons Buffy has already mentioned. It is not for men to decide what makes a feminist, that is hijacking a womens movement (any man calling himself a feminist is, imo, making a sexist statement and denying women their rights to solidarity).

It's up to feminism/feminists/women to decide if men can be called feminists.

I'd be interested to know how people think men ought to engage with feminism.

Good question. I want them to do the same as I aspire to do - get educated, challenge sexism when they see it, promote equal opportunities for girls and women etc. I do not want them to tell me when I'm doing feminism wrong, in their opinion.

Just a quick male opinion. Probably not thought this through fully but I always thought of it as. I can be a feminist with a small f. But I can't be a Feminist. I'll never have a shared experience or be able to set the agenda.

I've wondered a time or two if they can ever fully appreciate the impact of sex attacks, ie harassment and rape. My dh suffered from a couple of unprovoked attacks, resulting in a broken nose, wnen younger. He thought for years that was an equivalent.

I think men can be feminists in the same way that white people can be against all racism.

You think its abhorrent,support re-education and progress but can never actually understand truly what it is like to be in the other person's shoes.

You lot seem to have met a lot of feminist men! I have an issue with this for the following reasons,

Male privilege. A lot of them seem 'natural' and 'normal', e.g. of course women should look after children etc
Also, if you look at the list of the privileges, the last one is that men aren't even aware that they are privileges and so some get very
defensive when challenged on them.

Secondly men do not have the lived experience of being a woman hence literally don't see it or discount it when we bring it up ( think of the number of men who couldn't see the sexism and oppression in the recent video of the young woman walking around New York)

The only men I have met who I would consider feminists are men who are socialists and have a sophisticated awareness of oppression. ( like Owen Jones)

So I think they are few and far between basically, am heartened that you all know some but I personally know a lot of good, decent men that have a lot of dodgy opinions if you scratch the surface...

Dictionary definitions are relevant, especially as a starting point. And all dictionary definitions that I have seen are gender neutral. Feminism is first about belief.

Most dictionary definitions are similar to this one: "a person who supports feminism."

"...I personally know a lot of good, decent men that have a lot of dodgy opinions if you scratch the surface..."

Me too. And yet we call them "good", "decent".

Bear with me on this one, but I think the day a man could call himself a feminist without it raising an eyebrow, discussion nor query is the day feminism is no longer needed.

I do not believe today is that day. Something always makes me cringe when I see men wearing "this is what a feminist looks like" t shirts, although that might have something to do with the most recent examples being politicians, I'll need to go away and pick apart my thoughts and feelings on the matter.

What I will say is that the suffering of women can have an affect on men. If you cast your emotional net wide enough that which causes distress, pain and frustration to those that you care for will have an effect on you. This is what it means to be fully human not just male or female so I suspect you will understand my meaning. It will not be the same as direct experience but nevertheless it is there.

Also there is a crucial element at least for me in that feminism does not resonate with me in quite the same way I believe it does for women. It acts as a portal to a place where conditioned attitudes and beliefs can be challenged, deconstructed and (hopefully!) overcome, and in short find the space to ask the question everyone should ask of themselves which is "who am I?" And the freedom to define your own response.

I can intellectualise how I might "do" feminism were I a woman, and even have thoughts on how to do it differently, but I think without having walked through that portal it's only ever going to be so much hot air. I don't say that meekly, I quite like myself and I value my own thought processes and ideas, but I would like to think I respect the right of other people do do the same.

To put it bluntly I don't think I entirely understand feminism, and as such hesitate to apply the label to anyone, but firstly I'm not in fear of it, and secondly I am aware of a great deal of good that it does. Maybe that's all I need to know...

One of the most feminist people I've ever met was a man who was transsexual and living as a woman ( he has since decided to detransition, hence calling him a man). Having lived for most of his life with male privilege he was appalled at how he was treated as a woman and had a unique perspective on how it felt. That's what I mean when men cannot truly empathise with the lived experience of women.