Can men be feminists?

[Vivacia]

Inspired by another thread!

I've just read the claim that men can never really be feminists. I disagree. Would be fascinated, and grateful, to read others' thoughts on this.

Good posting Buffy. If you read this before you hide the thread, I just want to say "thanks" because I've just learned a lot.

erm..it's pretty clear I'm not a 'feminist man'

So do you prefer the label, "feminist ally"?

Oh just seen this thread!

This man can't be a Feminist, for most of the reasons already mentioned. I consider myself to have equalitistic (is that a word?) ideals, but I'm not comfortable with being classed a Feminist. To me Feminism is womens liberation, a social and political movement against the power I hold. It would be a conflict of interest* for me to be involved in it's evolution, despite wholeheartedly supporting the cause.

*Unconsciously.

It's just too dodgy a deal to work with in my opinion.

I'd always thought of myself as a feminist until reading this thread.

Not sure where that leaves me now though.

go on Bobby - say a bit more?

Okay.

"A bit more."

Vivacia - no, I have a sort of inclination to avoid 'labels' so no to to the 'ally' suggestion.
I was 'brought up' on what I think is called the 2nd Wave, and had lots of heated debates at the time - read voraciously Marge Piercey-Angela Carter-Margaret Atwood (and still read MP from time to time), when Virago Press was at it's height. When the Eq Ops exploded, at least in the UK.
Since then I've prob re-positioned to leaning toward the notion much more that advancement is more focused on men changing, and encouraged/forced at times to do that (hence use of 'mandate' ill-advisably), outside of 'feminism'.
So I def have a large inter-section on the Venn Diagram of how life should be led with feminists, but not exactly in agreement with feminism as a political movement. ifswim

clarifies things nicely Bobby

Well, that's utterly depressing. A bloke with an attitude turns up and everyone stops talking.

In other news, I've been watching the feminist awakening of a male friend. It's fascinating, and mirrors almost exactly the 'new' feminist musings of women on here. Notice the inequality in specific event. Ponder it. Become irritated by it. Become angry by it. Can never again unsee it. Start to notice other inequalities. Etc etc. I've seen it so many times with women, it's interesting to watch a man go through exactly the same thought processes and wrestle with them. With the added layer of reflection of recognizing his own male privilege, and the knowledge that his daughter won't have that.

So, he's also recognizing the feminist impetus at exactly the same time as many women do - when they realise at a personal level that social constructions around childcare are dictating their lives - although his realisation is interestingly not through the reality of his wife, but his daughter.

He's definitely a feminist. I'm not sure if he identifies as such though (yet ;-) ) As an activist he's more than used to maintaining an unpopular stance for the greater good, to his own physical and mental detriment, so I have no doubt that he could embody life as a feminist in the broader sense.

I'd love to ask his wife though - I susoect she would just say he's always been like that, he just didn't name it.

Fascinating to watch his feminist awakening though.

Thinking about it, I also suspect he reads mn, if not posts...

The first man I met who identified as a feminist had been brought up in a single parent family in the Thatcher era. So he had experienced the oppression of women. Hence I think was qualified to identify as feminist.

mad - this bloke who turned up. Did he turn up with a wrong attitude?

That's great mad, not so much for your friend right now.

minklundy wrote - "brought up in a single parent family in the Thatcher era. So he had experienced the oppression of women. Hence I think was qualified to identify as feminist."

I don't think growing up in a single parent family in Thatcher's Britain automatically entitles anyone to be a feminist. Although he experienced the oppression of children that occurs when women are oppressed, I suggest that he saw or witnessed the oppression of women, rather than experienced it.

Knowing that women and girls are oppressed is a necessary first step to becoming a feminist. Many people are aware that women and girls are oppressed, but that doesn't make them feminists. After all, lots of anti-feminists are aware that women and girls are oppressed. What makes a person a feminist is taking action to improve the status of women.

No idea dee - but I got the impression he had before, if not this time, seeing as no one was willing to engage. Once burnt twice shy?

I learned my lesson a long time ago about arguing on here about who could and couldn't identify as a feminist. Nice to pop back occasionally and see the discussion is ongoing. Not up enough on the FWR rumblings to be able to comment on justification either way though... It's always sad when discussion gets shut down (either deliberately or otherwise) and FWR has had quite enough deliberate derailing or just a lack of understanding over the years that sometimes a testosterone-free space is needed - but it is a shame when discussion stops for whatever reason. Wholly understandable from a serial derailment perspective, though.

I just popped on as the discussion resonated with me at the moment, because of my lovely friend. And was a wee bit pouty because the convo seemed to have stalled.

Hey ho. A half comment. No more, no less.

I didn't say he was automatically a feminist.
He identified as feminist and held feminist ideals. But someone upthread said men cannot be feminists because they are not opressed. I am saying the children of oppressed women are also oppressed.

I do agree that women don't need men to come and explain to them how feminism does or should work but if you want to explain it to other men, then you need men to get on board.

I don't think there are men who say "well, I'm all for feminist ideals but only if I can be called a feminist, if I'm referred to as an ally or a supporter, I'm off"

I don't mind either way, personally, but I understand the "ally" argument.

Re-reading the posts there's a lot of women doing everything and men not coming to the party for fear of "diluting" the feminist movement with their involvement.

But it takes "two to tango" doesn't it?

In order for the feminist movement to be "successful" both men and women need to participate - men stop oppressing and women throw off oppression.

The women in this dynamic are clearly feminists, but aren't the men who "stop oppressing" also feminists, whether they label themselves or not? In fact, they don't even choose to be feminists - they just aren't oppressing women.

Again, I'm struggling with semantics to answer the question.

Most men I have experienced get quite angry quite quickly if they think a female member had been slighted in some form, and I am sure pretty much all would not want their mum, sister or daughter being paid less/less opportunities etc to do the same job as someone else.

Would it help to remind them that every woman is someones mother, daughter, sister etc?

I cant remember if something like this has been done before?

For feminism to work i.e. to change the current male biased power balance in society, you need men and society (which is half men) to change. If you exclude men from this process it won't work (unless it is done by becoming the oppressor).

How about this?

BreakingDad, yes, sometimes it's done. It's problematic from a philosophical point of view because in fact a woman is not ".someone's daughter" etc, she's "someone". But I am ok with it from a practical perspective.

Female member of what Dad? Their family?

Why do you think the men get angry? Do you think "slighted" was the best choice of word? Why do you mention "mums, sisters and daughters" and why do you think it's a good idea to remind men that other women are also someone else's "mother, sister or daughter"?

X post Flora. Who I suspect feels more strongly than me that it shouldn't be used even as a practical tool. Cos we aren't borg

Orphaned, childless, only children are people too, of course...