Can men be feminists?

[Vivacia]

Inspired by another thread!

I've just read the claim that men can never really be feminists. I disagree. Would be fascinated, and grateful, to read others' thoughts on this.

You post read to me that your were including all men. Rape and violence against women are subtly different. I thought rape was about power over either gender.

I'm to your statement "women are better suited for some tasks", what would those be?

I don't think women are inherently better at some tasks, but they (we) are socialized better for some tasks such as care, which men can do perfectly well (I've seen this first hand, my uncle was an elder carer - and excellent at it - for years) but women assume they must do and are socialized with the expectation and tools to a greater extent than men.

I know that reads poorly. Sorry!

Btw buffy ta for that link 'tis interesting

To return to the OP.

This was discussed on Women's Hour today, which DH listens to, and he was deeply pissed off with the suggestion that men can't be feminists. We talked about it this evening, and he now thinks that it's probably true that men can be feminists, in that they support the goals of feminism and actively work within their spheres of influence to combat Patriarchy, but that they can't be Feminists, because he agrees that it has to be lead by women and that men have an ingrained and unconscious tendency to take over conversations and causes they become involved in.

Which makes sense to us, and I hope to others

I'm always quite amused by the idea of men getting all uppetty because some woman told them they can't be a feminist. As though just by virtue of being male they can be anything they like. For how long were women not able to be just anything they liked? oh, that rule still applies. Feminism is about women's liberation, equal rights is some liberal conception and a complete lie. What is more, it is for women to liberate themselves because in the act of doing so, they become liberated.

I'm not sure he was getting all uppity, if I'm being fair. Plus, he agrees that feminism is about women's liberation. What he was pissed off about was the inference that men shouldn't be feminists, which he gets enough of at work.

He does get it, insofar as a man can get it, what with the lack of lived experience.

Oh puffins, I'm not inferring you DH is uppetty but some men really don't get it. It is just another way of men enforcing their rights and privilege. They say "listen up I'm a feminist" and as a woman I am expected to listen to some bloke tell me what I want or need. If you dare to say they can't be a feminist, they get uppetty, because simmering under that surface is misogyny and a sense of entitlement. This just proves the point. So I agree with others. Men can be allies, and they can be better men by treating women as their equals, but the very best thing men can do is be quiet and listen and learn.

the day a man could call himself a feminist without it raising an eyebrow, discussion nor query is the day feminism is no longer needed.

Dervel has said more or less exactly as what I would. I am not a feminist, but I support it wholeheartedly.

What I do believe is that if we can make more men see that feminism benefits them too then patriarchy can be overcome. One thing that really bothers me is why would any woman would not be a feminist.

IMO, the best way a man can learn is by listening. Then educate by starting on male family members and friends. Oh, and by not defining what feminism is to a woman. :o

You Dervel and my DH need to get together and form a support group

My DH could come too...he'll bring the cakes

Cakes Ho! I believe you are onto something there DoctorTwo, but I think if one fails to make men see the benefits of feminism a good thing to chip away at is their fear of it. I honestly believe fear is a major pillar that holds up the patriarchy.

Think on it if you look at some of the men who come on here to post asinine arguments about whatever the topic of the week is, and you see their disdain for feminism clear as day, if they trully thought feminism was bunkem why even engage with it in the first place?

This was neatly illustrated by Caroline Criado-Perez's campaign for Jane Austin to go on a banknote. At the time I personally didn't give fig who goes on the banknotes, and at first glance I remember thinking perhaps there were better things to campaign about, and then the following thought was "fuck it it's better to care about something than nothing, too much apathy in the world anyway". Then something that utterly confused me happened, suddenly legions of men were coming out the woodwork (and let's face it it was mainly men), arguing what a waste of time it was, utterly missing the bizarre irony that opposing something on the grounds of it being inconsequential is at least as inconsequential and time wasting as the thing you are railing against.

Then it gets ugly, death and rape threats abound, and bullying that if it wasn't so sinister would border on the genuinely amusing. Thus ultimately proving her point in the first place by scoring a spectacular own goal. If it trully doesn't make a difference putting a woman on a banknote it therefore follows putting one there should also make no difference?? What it looked liked to me is a classic fear response, which again mystifies me, as climate change marches inexorably foward, terrorism gains ground, Russia is rattling its saber again and I can barely hear the tumbleweed drifting past over the thunderous sound of apathy, yet a woman wants to put another woman on a banknote and it looks like the males of the species collectively shit themselves, draw up battle plans and sally forth en masse....

Unless of course there is a secret prophecy that's read out at patriarchy meetings that decrees the seas will boil and the sky will turn into lots of spanners if ever a woman is listened to, or worse allowed to go about her own sodding business in peace. Of course I wouldn't know I like to sleep in.

I believe they can be allies but a male feminist is not the same as a female feminist. I liken it to white South Africans during apartheid, you can disagree with apartheid, lobby for its end etc but you have still benefited from it, you went to a better school, you got a better education and you can live closer than 2hours away from where you work.

You can see wrong around you but it is not happening to you

It's not just Ms Criado Perez, it's every woman who dares stick her head above the parapet who is seen as fair game. Google 'Gamergate' and prepare to be appalled at how female game players, designers and reviewers are treated.

If you deign to look beyond the mainstream about Russia you'll quickly find the sabre rattling is being done by the US and NATO. The coup in Ukraine was paid for by the US, and yes, Russia annexed Crimea to stop US and NATO warships from having access to Sebastopol. Global Research has done some good work on this. When NATO asserts that Russia has thousands of troops in Ukraine they offer no evidence, and they're refuted by the OSCE and various journalist outfits.

Sorry for the derail, but our governments and the media are preparing us for the coming cold war with maybe a hot war to follow.

believing that men and women should be equal, recognising that men currently have gender privilege over women, and working to remove that male privilege

I think in the economic sphere this is possible, but in society feminism is a confused because of societal beliefs, it will be many years before this changes. The proxies for the male buying the woman's interest. In popular culture I was shocked by how older women seemed to be so dismissive of Mel in the jungles positive female image.

Yup, those exchanges between Mel and Edwina were illuminating, I think. Even Edwina who is in a priveliged position, well able to hold her own and support herself seemed to find it hard to believe that a younger woman would have no economic/emotional need for a permanent man in her life.

Man as feminist reminds me of the Eddie Izzard-as-Jesus warning God that that the rich have found a solution to the 'camel passing through the eye of a needle' problem by purchasing really big liquidisers and a set of very fine needle jets and doing the job that way. 'So they are all coming up now'...man as feminist prob. brings that degree of difficulty.

Man wanting to be considered a feminist can wonder around in his own sweet head thinking that he is - though I've known lots and lots of very liberally, keen men, but when faced with the actual or theoretical sacrifice of passing over privilege the response is, generally, 'well I'm not that much of a feminist.

Also slightly bemused by the zero-threat to women presented by gay men. I've lived most of my adult life in Manchester, friends/social groups incl gay/straight/bisexual and a trans male friend - lived with a couple of gay men friends for a while - I don't see the zero threat thing at all.

Anyfucker is it a generation thing?

Ok the zero threat of gay men was prob not the best statement. But I was finding it find difficult to understand how the male gender regardless of orientation could be being said to be of equal threat to women? To me sounds the same as 'all terrorists are muslim all Muslims are terrorists' are

BreakingDad Could you elaborate? What exactly do you perceive to be possibly generational?

Scones, was where we were talking about Edwinas dismissive atitude to Mel positive female. Women taking issue with Mel not needing a man.

I'm not in the UK so I'm not really familiar with Mel and Edwina (other than a quick google), but I think we need to be careful about describing attitudes as generational. There are many older women who feel that they do not "need a man" and many younger ones who do.