How women act differently in the presence of men

[msrisotto]

This was discussed briefly on a trans thread. I read it a couple of weeks ago and it has played on my mind since.

I'd like it if people could share their experiences of this. Before reading it, I didn't think being in the presence of men changed anything about me and other females but thinking about it more....it does. Examples:

When I have 'the girls' over for dinner or something, I hint heavily that DH goes to the cinema or out to see friends too. He does. Why do I do this? Him being in the house changes the topics we talk about, how raucous we become etc etc

When I spend time with my sister, I try to make it an activity that excludes her husband (and mine tbf). Things are different when he's there, she's different and I assume I am too.

In a work context - I work in a female dominated field. When meetings are female only they are completely different to when there are any men in them. I watch my colleagues (women) look to the men to respond to questions and topics that they are more than qualified to take the lead on themselves. And I always see the men talking over the women.

Have you noticed this?

I was also thinking about education, so that makes sense to me.

We get told all that guff about how women are innately better at being primary school teachers because we're such patient facilitators, but we are also really strongly socialized to genuinely be better.

I think the issue is about value, really. If society could be persuaded to put a proper value on skills like creating an inclusive conversation, jobs like teaching would (I think) also be much better respected.

Slight tangent, but IMO women's skills for this in education are also expected to be better than men's - classes will give a male teacher more slack if he fails to help shy/socially awkward people to speak, and will be more forgiving if he uses a crude interruption technique rather than a tactful one.

And YY to fostering these skills.

Agreed, these are really important skills. I think the whole of University life would be improved if there wasn't some sort of residual value in being an absolute boor orating at length on any given subject, say in meetings, or in answer to some minor query about administrative points, or over the desk in a shared office. Fortunately my habitual, resting face seems to say: are you some sort of idiot? so I am okay at minimising the boorish damage in these situations. But I've sst at countless meetings listening to some twat mansplain to the chair, when that chair is usually very polite and accommodating even though she has four post-graduate degrees and an honorary doctorate in chairing meetings.

i think it's inevitable if you're brought together not through mutual interest, but through circumstances, such as having partners who happen to get on, or children of the same age who do the same hobby

sorry, not inevitable that they find you weird!

inevitable that one ends up being on "best behaviour" and playing a part

it is indeed

i wish i could do the former

we moved around a lot when i was a child. i was always the new girl, so i am very very good at frankly rather dull small talk. this means that people tend to view me as nice but boring and that for me is a "safe" relationship so that's fine. i'm not very good at long-term close platonic relationships because i haven't had much practice. i am aware of what i'm missing out on

Mwah! to you, too Buffy I am pleased to get reassurance about the meetup.

I'm just about to go and pick the brains of my BiL who went to America for.six weeks over the summer, for activist development stuff focused on facilitating activism and enabling dialogue between different groups. He's going to think through the implications for educating with me, which got me to wondering whether the different discourse styles that we are socialised in is at the centre of the differences in outcomes for.sex segregated or mixed education?

wondering whether the different discourse styles that we are socialised in is at the centre of the differences in outcomes for.sex segregated or mixed education?

I'm sure it must play a big part. Meetings at work with just women have a very different dynamic - part of that is down to the all-women meetings being mostly voluntary, whereas team meetings and project meetings are less optional, and there are people who would clearly not be there if given a choice. But it is more inclusive, there's less verbal territory-marking, and rank is less important than being given a chance to voice ideas. Men seem to be more worried about losing face if someone doesn't like an idea, and women seem more open to risk being wrong (at least when there are no men there,) so more things come out into open. But it could also be down to the particular dynamics of my own, male department, because some of the power and so on is really quite rubbish by any standards, and it might be better among other groups of men.

"part of that is down to the all-women meetings being mostly voluntary, whereas team meetings and project meetings are less optional"

that is an extremely good point, and is reflected at my company too

Don't you have any all-women teams then? Eg HR? I tried to set up a women's network at a previous organisation. The HR department said it wasn't needed, but then there is no shortage of women in HR.

With us, HR is about 50/50, and that's the best represented area we have. I think we're above average (just) for tech companies, but that's partly because departments like HR brings the overall numbers up.

our HR is all women headed up by a man. but i'm not in HR and it is a huge company so i'm not going to be in meetings with them. our customer services is almost all women, again mostly headed up by men. again, not my group

otherwise no other all-women teams, and i work in an industry that has pretty good representation in terms of numbers of women (until you look above a certain level)

as i said, we have a global women's network, but after complaints from men about exclusion they decided it would be for all but is still called the women's network

Do the men actually attend as well Petula ?

Yes all women except male boss I find rather depressing.

"Do the men actually attend as well Petula ?"

That is an excellent question & reminded me of an observation at my work.

We have talks to do with diversity issues etc which are free to attend or not as you choose (usually in lunch break). They are pretty good - Prof type people talking about bias and stuff.

They are extremely disproportionately attended by females and non white people.

I think that's why it's important to include men. I'm pretty sure some of my colleagues just see it as "that women's thing Emma does," and probably think we sit round chatting about knitting or something, despite the fact I pass on info I learn (I'm far more likely to hear about HR initiatives and the like through the women's association than via my managers. ) Some of the men are starting to see it as useful for networking and development, but they're not keen on coming to meetings, because they feel nervous in case they're the only man. I am not very sympathetic, and point out I have to deal with being the only one of my sex every single day of my career, and this is why we need to support women in the workplace.

But men have to be part of improving things. They're the majority of managers, and they need to be aware of things like unconscious bias, so they're a bit less likely to employ yet more men like themselves. They're the majority of workers on the floor, and they need to be aware it's their attitudes and banter and comments that make it a good or bad work culture.

There are mostly single sex secondary schools where I work, and we need to work with the girls to encourage them to consider STEM careers - but we need to work with the boys, too, so they grew up knowing women in STEM workplaces is an entirely normal thing, and not some weird novelty for them to stare at.

It's not just about science & tech workplaces of course; that's just where I get to spend most of my time and most actively campaign, which is why I bang on about it more than other areas.

Cheminotte no they don't. It was a protest on principle alone

Thanks Seven .
I thought that would be the case Petula ; so not even your male head of HR then. Yes I agree men need to see women being everywhere at all level as just normal. I do sometimes wonder to what extent they notice the presence or absence of women. I've been at meetings of 10, 20 even 30 people and been the only woman because as pp have said the women in the company are mostly in the support functions ( I include myself) but the operations / delivery is mostly male.

I worked for some years in a diversity policy role. Every conference I went to was female and BME. Until they brought out age discrimination. Suddenly the place was full of 50something white men who had worked out there might be sme advantage in this equality lark for them .

I tank the hardest thing is how to be in charge as a woman of my age. You choose between mumsy and harridan. Men really, really hate it if you are competent.

There are some exceptions, but they are, now I think about it, either ppl with rather odd relationships with their DWs, or (my favourite kind of senior bloke) gay.

Watching

On chairing: I generally stay away from meetings, but there was a couple of years when I chaired a diversity type team. I went for the competent and slightly impatient mode - the "we want to get this done as quickly as possible so that we can have our tea and biscuits" mode, and "if you have nothing constructive to say let's move on" mode. Not sure if that increased my popularity stake. Is that mumsy? That's how we do things at home - "if you want to get on minecraft you do your homework now with minimum fuss", and "we've got X, Y and Z and you can choose your packed lunch but moaning about not having caramel waffles is not going to make it happen". Transferable skills, this parenting lark.