How women act differently in the presence of men

[msrisotto]

This was discussed briefly on a trans thread. I read it a couple of weeks ago and it has played on my mind since.

I'd like it if people could share their experiences of this. Before reading it, I didn't think being in the presence of men changed anything about me and other females but thinking about it more....it does. Examples:

When I have 'the girls' over for dinner or something, I hint heavily that DH goes to the cinema or out to see friends too. He does. Why do I do this? Him being in the house changes the topics we talk about, how raucous we become etc etc

When I spend time with my sister, I try to make it an activity that excludes her husband (and mine tbf). Things are different when he's there, she's different and I assume I am too.

In a work context - I work in a female dominated field. When meetings are female only they are completely different to when there are any men in them. I watch my colleagues (women) look to the men to respond to questions and topics that they are more than qualified to take the lead on themselves. And I always see the men talking over the women.

Have you noticed this?

Oh the "don't swear in front of the little women" stuff? Hate it.

YY I swear like a trooper and always have. This bloke at work keeps saying thinks like "shit" and then going Oh Sorry Seven and looking all contrite.

This is sometimes immediately after me saying something like Of For Fucks Sake I've got this bastard meeting later and the people on the project are just sitting around on their arses not doing anything etc etc etc

It is VERY ODD.

He also does all that "oh shopping you'd know all about that" type stuff.

I am just like, has he even met me?

My colleagues say he is "old fashioned".

It is utterly bizarre.

i probably should swear less at work though and am trying. but that's kind on not the point

seven if I have your Vimto reference correct, I went to that institute. Many yearsago

Seven: that swearing in front of women and then saying sorry is not genuine regret (which of course is not necessary). It's a not so subtle way of saying I'm a big man who is allowed to swear and am doing it show how macho I am, which is emphasised then by a faux apology to the little lady, which in turn shows that she is a special snowflake who is too delicate to be sworn in front of. So in one fell swoop he has boosted his ego and denigrated you while implying it was all accidental.

OMG yes grimble that is exactly what he's doing isn't it.

What a twat.

Norma how interesting - have messaged you :)

I think men are protected from a lot of the things women have to talk about to each other. Hysterectomies, breastfeeding, infertility worries, pregnancy scares, sexism, the legacy of abuse or an assault, dealing with sexism at work... Men just haven't a clue really (what women have to deal with behind the scenes).

Agree with that as well OldFossil.

It has come up a lot recently that most men are utterly unaware of the street harrassment / "minor" assault because men don't tend to do it if there is another man around. And of course more major stuff doesn't really get talked about at all even in single sex groups.

I think that the silence is starting to be eroded now and with that i hope will come an understanding of the extent of the problem, that it is all interconnected and that women and girls should not be expected to put up with it - and even be encouraged to see it as a "compliment" in some way.

Yes absolutely

I am always astounded when I realise how little DH is aware of sexism and yet how aware every woman I meet is. Even if they claim they're not a feminist or think sexism is dead, every single woman starts nodding along and relating when you actually start speaking about low level everyday sexism.

When I was doing my degree I got chatting with the postgrad student who was running the seminars about this difference and she said it happens every single time. You don't have to name it sexism/feminism (in fact she said it's less helpful if you do name it because it prompts people to put their emotional reactions onto the name) but you start talking about sexism and every woman in the class will be nodding along, enthusiastic, jumping in with ideas (because they've never seen or heard it discussed in a mixed space before, but they're usually young enough not to have experienced being massively shut down by men when they try) and the men sit there totally nonplussed, not really getting it, jumping in with one of those good old counter arguments we've all heard a million times. She said it always, always fascinated her.

Communication is vital so men kow what everyday sexism women put up with.

Unusually I am very often in almost all male groups and I am usually in charge, the most senior person there and highest paid (this is wonderful by the way - I recommend all mumsnetters get to that position - it rocks....) so not surprisingly no one puts me down as they are kissing my feet (or not quite but a bit like that).

However I virtually never cycle without men make some comment or other even at my age. Every day sexism is out there.

I meet high paid professional clever women so I don't really see them giving way to men. They tend to be competing with them and trying to beat them. I think that's a wonderful trend. Long may it continue.

Well if I've learned one thing from this thread, it's that the correct response to a man saying sorry for swearing is "Don't fucking apologise to me, you sexist twat" .

BOFster: exactly. My response has always been " make up your mind sunshine. Either don't swear or swear and don't apologise but fuck faffing around"

I'm not a great fan if swearing tbh. But I can't stand men swearing and then saying 'scuse my French chem' . If you were really being considerate you just wouldn't say it was it in the first place.
Last job was mostly men (80/20). This job is same ratio but my team is much more female, so much nicer, more accepting that we have life outside work and collaborative rather than competitive.

yeh i agree, if you're gonna swear, like fucking OWN it

There are good ways and bad ways, I definitely only have discussions about sexism with the other women (mainly at work but IME female scientists tend to all be feminists so it's a very safe environment to discuss it). The loo thing is interesting, I'm currently working on a project that has a female project leader, for the first time ever I have (ad hoc) meetings in the loo. It feels naughty and radical even when we aren't discussing anything controversal.

Some people have hinted at it but there's definitely that 'hyper-female' type of discussion that I never know how to take part in when some women (NAWALT) talk about diets/make-up/nail polish. If that's your only experience of women's conversation it's very sad but just because there are some women who talk about those things some of the time doesn't mean that's all women talk about. There's a ot of valuable discussion about 'the female experience' (periods, contraception, pregnancy, being a mother, menopause let alone sexism) that is worthwhile and only happens in female dominated spaces. Never mind the very raucous humour that we have, at work the only laughter comes from offices with women in them.

I was just talking about dialogue styles of men and women with someone who has a PhD in di

It's interesting to think women only spaces about cos I was only the other week meeting a group of MN feminists and I had the slight concern that I came off like a dickhead, which is always a bit of a worry to be fair, but when I thought about it, I got the dickhead sense from the fact that when I spoke, everyone turned and listened, and let me finish what I was saying. And I am totally unused to that, and feel instinctively that if I have got through a whole point without being interrupted or talked.over, and then that point has been accepted and responded to, then I must be dominating the conversation in an unacceptable way. So I put the dickhead sense down to being socialised in a way to expect to have to really fight to interject, and then expect to be talked over, etc. (Though obviously am right now thinking I'm double dickhead for being one in the first place but being such a massive one that I've found a politically convenient way of rationalizing it rather than being able to recognise it).

This was a very particular kind of women's space, it wasn't mates doing the raucous thing or like the women only spaces that happen in my parenting life - in these spaces I recognise the points PP have made about how the topics are notably different. It was women only political and intellectual.space and it was noticeable (and interesting and welcome) how the dialogue style was really accommodating.

Oops, didn't quite delete the first thing I put in which wasn't really on topic

I feel guilty or wrong for talking sometimes too OutsSelf.

Interesting that a sharp, raucous sense of humous has been a recurring theme here, particularly in light of the fact that there aren't many high profile female comedians and the trope that women aren't funny! We are funny, we just don't spend to show it in front of men. I wonder if that is because being funny is sometimes about ridiculing those in positions of power, or making astute observations which display intelligence, being crass or rude, things women aren't necessarily socialised to do in the presence of men?

Some of us are funny. I think people pay a lot of money regularly to hear me speak at least in part because of the humour compared to many other male and female speakers on my topics.

I find groups of women quite dull when it's all sitting around talking about cake and diets and stuff.

That is pretty dull, but it's just as dull when men do it. < Looks pointedly at male team members, who can bang on boringly competitively about 5:2ing and the gym. >

One of the things I like about the women's group at work is that they're not that obsessed about rank in the way that men can be. It's important in the sense that more senior people have the contacts we might need, and may also have the power to do things which have been decided, but it's irrelevant in the sense that anyone might have useful ideas and feedback, and people are listened to, regardless of rank. I find when discussing things with men (as most of the rest of my daily work is, as it's very male-dominated), they will pay more attention to those who are more senior (and possibly more male than me) - and they're missing out on some good ideas as a result (I get ignored when pointing this out.) Some are worse than others for this, but it does seem to be something men at work care about more. I don't know if the dynamic between women would change if there were more of us.

inevitably, the "safe", small-talk, conforming to stereotype conversations are likely to be dull for many women. it's not supposed to be interesting, really - it's just lubricating the wheels of daily interactions, demonstrating that you're prepared to show willing and play along with social norms so that people feel comfortable in your presence

i think it's probably the same for many men as women - sport tends to be a safe topic of conversation for many men, and my dp admits that he doesn't find football very interesting but it's useful to loosely follow what's going on in order to join in with casual conversations with other men. likewise, i'll make conversation with another woman about shoes, hair, clothes, nails, those sorts of social niceties, if they bring it up or i can see from the way they dress that they take an interest in that. i'm not going to go straight in there with a description of what it was like having a coil fitted

i had MH problems for a number of years and isolated myself socially. when i started socialising again it was mostly with dp's male friends' female partners, and as someone upthread has said, this doesn't always make for close female friendships. i didn't find them terribly interesting, and i don't think they found me all that interesting either. all we really had in common was that our partners were friends, and i was something of a newcomer so they were naturally cautious with me and less open and relaxed than they would have been if i hadn't been there. these days, some of them i still have little in common with, but with others we have become more intimate friends and i recognise much of the descriptions of female company above

outs I also had the 'shit, I'm a dickhead' self-assessment.

But I think you're right why it happens - we are all used to be interrupted. In fact, something I found myself doing with another big women-only group was slipping into teacher mode (because that is pretty much the only experience I have when I don't get blokes interrupting a lot). I felt like a massive wanker.

Something I like about being in a group of women, though, is I think people are a bit better at noticing someone who is either naturally quiet, or struggling to find an 'in' to the conversation. It really frustrates me that in mixed gender groups, you can often see a woman sitting there clearly wanting to say something, and even if all the other women notice that and try to sort of interrupt for her, it doesn't work.

I think women are probably more socialised to pay attention to who's not speaking and might want to, in the 'a good wife helps the conversation flow' kind of revolting way. It's actually a really good skill.

Btw, this is just me ranting, but went to a wedding last weekend and here's a great example of women acting differently in the presence of men! The blokes started talking (pseudo) learnedly about booze and my female mate went to join in. She knows her stuff. They froze her own, in a fairly wankerish way, and she ended up seething and retreated into small-talk cliches because she couldn't be arsed.

But I know if she'd been in a group of women she'd simply have called them on it, and then she wouldn't have been seething for the rest of the conversation, and she wouldn't have ended up talking cliches, either.

Ha ha, your not dickheadness has made me feel surer of mine.

It's funny you should make the comment about women being skilled in inclusive practices - the point I was going to make earlier is that my mate with a PhD focused on dialogue as democratic action said to me that all tough political negotiations should be undertaken by women because they are better at creating democratic dialogue spaces and they are more able to shift their own position in order fully to appreciate the position of the other. I'm now thinking that that could make women better educators? Of course she was speaking from the point of view that women are socialised to have such skills, rather than assuming the rules for effective dialogue were printed on our ovaries.

Yes I suppose for future action we should be looking at how to foster those skills in men