Why are feminists so threatened by the MRA movement?

[LaVoixDeLaRaison]

When I was at university, the Gender Equality society (of which I was a member) chose to rename itself the Feminist society, arguing that the only way equality could be achieved was by focusing on women's issues. This led some other students to set up an MRA group, which was met with some resistance from the feminists. On this very board I see commenters angrily referring to MRAs as if they are all members of an evil homogeneous group.

Isn't it possible that men and women both suffer oppression from society in different ways? That the levels of this oppression are not necessarily equal, but are still important if we are to achieve equality? I often see feminists agreeing with certain 'male issues' (e.g. media stereotypes, elevated male suicide rate), but suggesting that feminism has other priorities, and if they want to do something about these issues then they should make their own groups. Why do they get criticized when they do exactly that? Better still, wouldn't feminism be better off if it didn't alienate so many men (and women, focused on a wider range of issues, and stopped pitting the sexes against one another?

scallopsrgreat
In some circumstances which I have listed, I feel that women have more power than men. I don't buy into the claim that just because we live in a patriarchal society, it's impossible for women to have any systemic power. How do you know these examples are caused by gender stereotypes? Has there ever been any study of it, or does it just fit in with what you believe about feminism?

AnnieLobeseder
Many feminists (though not all) do, as you say, fight for these issues, albeit indirectly. My problem with this is that they approach the issues from what I believe is very harmful perspective - either agree that these issues are caused by gender stereotyping, or get out. So I don't think this indirect approach is having any impact at all, and so I believe it's important to have a better representation of these issues.

As mentioned before, I stay away from MRA forums because I believe they're not really used by those who really represent MRA, but by very bitter and angry men. I signed up here because it is a real discussion forum for real feminists. At the moment I'm limiting my efforts of convincing MRAs to unite with feminists to real-life settings, but if you can find a serious MRA forum, I'd be happy to argue there too.

Right, well first off, congratulations for actually saying something and making a point! Well done.

-Almost certainly due to the patriarchy, and the "boys will be boys" idea, boys are loud and a noxious, girls are quiet and well behaved. Girls toys for example, all aimed at decorating or accessorising. Quiet and obedient past times. Someone with wider knowledge than me will come and debunk that properly for you I'm sure.
-Most likely an extension of what I've just said above.
-Positive discrimination what?! What are you talking about? What on earth do women get positively discriminated for?
-Again, likely to be due to the pressure to succeed, be 'breadwinner', have beautiful wife and family to provide for. I would say that comes under the patriarchy umbrella, but like you say you would need to do more research.
-That is a medical fact. Does the NHS cut off medical treatment to men over a certain age? Does it offer substandard care because men aren't likely to live as long? Not oppression or discrimination there, you're just stating a fact. Please tell me if I've missed the point.

Zazzles that is a brilliant list But may i add one.

Criticising and taking the piss and shouting nasty comments at women for being overweight and saying they need to excersise and then criticising and talking the piss and shouting at them when they are excersising.

You know, I feel so contrite now. This discussion has made me really challenge my values. I'm going to dedicate my life now to improving men's rights and I'm going to begin by mounting a Twitter fat-shaming campaign against men in the hope that it might save lives and improve their life-expectancy. Step away from that manly Yorkie Bar and steak you fat fuck bastards! Don't you want disgruntled care home staff to be wiping your slender arse when you're 103?!

Young men's suicide rates are awful. Why do you think men commit suicide more in the under 35 age groups if it's not because of the unrealistic demands placed upon them by patriarchy? Patriarchy harms everyone, not just women. Why do you think more women attempt suicide? Why do you think that those attempted suicides don't pan out for women? Are we just crap at that too?

I have some expertise in this, so do tell me your thoughts.

AnnieLobeseder
StevesBollocksAnalogy

You've mentioned what these might be 'likely due to', but my point is that there needs to be a serious academic examination of these issues so we can see what they're actually due to.

I know I'm introducing another contentious topic here which is rather inconsiderate at this time of the evening, but I believe that many gender issues are caused by the suggestion that men and women tend to have characteristically different brains. I know some gender feminist academics such as Cordelia Fine have argued that this is 100% down to socialization, but after reading both sides of the argument I was more convinced by other academics such as Simon Baron Cohen and Steven Pinker, who argue that these differences are innate. This is discussion for another thread, but if this were the case (and given that leading academics disagree, I'm sure that none of us can be so bold as to claim we know the truth one way or the other) then it opens the possibility that gender imbalances might remain even if stereotypes were reduced.

I'm signing out for the evening now, but let me just say that I've heartily enjoyed this discussion, and I'll try to come back tomorrow to any posts I haven't answered yet.

Gender stereotyping is fundamental to feminist criticism, you can't get away from that

The onus is not on me to seek out these "reasonable" forums. You're the one who says they exist, so you produce them. You have said yourself you avoid regular MRA forums, and one of the others you suggested has also proved itself inappropriate. You made snide remarks about me not "going out of my comfort zone" and posting on MRA sites (when I was talking about threats of violence) but have now admitted that you avoid them too.

If you really wanted MRAs and feminists to work together, you wouldn't be on a site where the oppressed group gather berating them for not campaigning on behalf of their oppressors. You would be putting your money where your mouth is and getting onto the MRA sites and trying to persuade them that they are the privileged group and more can be achieved if they acknowledge that

"Challenging" feminists is the easy option. Get out of your own comfort zone and challenge the ones with the power to do something about it

(In other words, be a feminist)

"I've heartily enjoyed this discussion"

I bet you have - it's been purely for your benefit and no one else's

(Apart perhaps from the coining of the phrase "mortifying dickhead", the memes and Inigo)

Did you come on here to challenge your own opinion or to try to change ours?

You took a whole fucking paragraph to say "Some scientists think male and female brains are different due to socialisation, others think it is innate, I am inclined to agree with the latter." We are not politicians here, say what you actually mean. You won't hurt the poor womenz feelings. It is frustrating trying to have a conversation with someone who keeps waffling around and avoiding the questions.

Here's an idea for you. Let's get rid of the patriarchy and see how many of those issues still exist. Because women will be substantially better off once they are valued as more than the vessels of the children they have the potential to make and objects to be twirled on a pedestal. All of us have everything to gain by getting rid of it.

Thanks for the site. Recommendations. Neither seem to have forums where I can talk to the reasonavle activists.

So a bit of a fail there.

So in answer to your OP. The MRAs I have come across who comment on fora tend to be abusive , misogynistic dickwads, and you haven't given me this mythical place where there exists a reasonable, intelligent MRA that I can engage with.

In keeping with your username.... Quelle surprise

"Let's get rid of the patriarchy "

And replace it with what? A matriarchy?

"Individual members of the MRA "movement" do however literally threaten individual feminists / groups of feminists with violence,"

Any evidence of this? I know you're going to reply with that banknote woman we keep hearing about but any other examples?

"PetulaGordino Tue 09-Sep-14 21:41:24
What are you doing about global violence against women?"

And why is it the responsibility of the OP? Why are specific individuals to blame for what other people they don't even know do?

"Young men's suicide rates are awful. Why do you think men commit suicide more in the under 35 age groups if it's not because of the unrealistic demands placed upon them by patriarchy?"

Is it really because of the so-called "patriarchy"? Or could it be because men are discouraged from seeking help or expressing emotion? Women are encouraged to seek help if they need it, men are told to "man up".

"if you can find a serious MRA forum, I'd be happy to argue there too."

Try antimisandry.com

"OP Could you please explain the point of the fat shaming week that an MRA group launched on Twitter just over a year ago?"

Were they really an MRA group? Or did you just add those letters yourself?

Oh, how tiring.

Please let me politely answer your initial question, as well as all your subsequent ones, with this link to a brilliant explanation as to why Feminists are not responsible for educating men.

HTH

Oh, you've read 'Gender Delusions' then. Which parts of Fine's argument do you disagree with?

antimisandry.com does not seem to have much about men's rights. It mostly seems to be moaning about women who don't Know Their Place.

Being told to "man up" is a patriarchal construction, dude.

www.dailydot.com/culture/anita-sarkeesian-ted-talk-misogynist-comments/

There's another one, dude. I'm sure you know that one since you are so worked up on the other thread about Anita's $, I guess you gave them all to her yourself.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2384735/Twitter-troll-sends-MP-Stella-Creasy-threat-image-masked-knifeman.html

Stella Creasy and Mary Beard.

I love how people who don't believe the patriarchy exists will then go on to use explanations for societal problems that boil down to "patriarchy"

The suicide quote was mine. Thanks for pointing out that my thoughts were correct.

there needs to be a serious academic examination of these issues so we can see what they're actually due to.

I agree. So on you go. Or are you, again, expecting feminists to do this for you?

Hey, new guy, wazedak. I think I need to make an Inigo Montoya meme for you too cos you don't seem to understand what patriarchy is.

*"Young men's suicide rates are awful. Why do you think men commit suicide more in the under 35 age groups if it's not because of the unrealistic demands placed upon them by patriarchy?"

Is it really because of the so-called "patriarchy"? Or could it be because men are discouraged from seeking help or expressing emotion? Women are encouraged to seek help if they need it, men are told to "man up".*

Um, yes, that bit about men not being taught to express emotions in a healthy way - that's male socialisation and patriarchy. And has already been discussed on this thread.

So you stay away from MRA forums and spaces, as they are all vile misogynists, but you're sure there are nice ones out there and it's up to women to find them?