Why are feminists so threatened by the MRA movement?

[LaVoixDeLaRaison]

When I was at university, the Gender Equality society (of which I was a member) chose to rename itself the Feminist society, arguing that the only way equality could be achieved was by focusing on women's issues. This led some other students to set up an MRA group, which was met with some resistance from the feminists. On this very board I see commenters angrily referring to MRAs as if they are all members of an evil homogeneous group.

Isn't it possible that men and women both suffer oppression from society in different ways? That the levels of this oppression are not necessarily equal, but are still important if we are to achieve equality? I often see feminists agreeing with certain 'male issues' (e.g. media stereotypes, elevated male suicide rate), but suggesting that feminism has other priorities, and if they want to do something about these issues then they should make their own groups. Why do they get criticized when they do exactly that? Better still, wouldn't feminism be better off if it didn't alienate so many men (and women, focused on a wider range of issues, and stopped pitting the sexes against one another?

JustTheRightBullets
I don't spend much time on MRA forums because, as you have pointed out, they tend to attract abusive misogynists. I'm referring more to groups such as Fathers 4 Justice, Parity UK, and university societies. These groups also attract some idiots (as do all groups), but to me, the core principles that these groups are founded on are sound. I don't think it's useful to view all MRAs in the same light as we view trolls.

I didn't say you had made personal attacks. I said that feminists here have direct experience of the unpleasant ways MRAs operate, to a greater or lesser extent, and that your posts here fit into that continuum

Deliberately derailing feminist discussion, demanding that feminists work for the benefit of men over that of women, all that (which you have done here) forms part of that experience of MRA behaviour that is abhorrent. It's at the lesser end of course, but it is included

Stop talking about what women here "believe" about MRAs and understand that we know exactly what they are like, through our own direct experience

Can you point us in the direction of a MRA website / resource / forum / group which you feel reflects and supports your feminist values?

Yes, please. I would find it wonderfully refreshing to find a forum of men whose goals aligned with ours. Like digging the Channel Tunnel - the men start dismantling the patriarchy and the damage is does to men from their end by campaigning for support for men's mental health, and pushing for support for men taking career breaks, flexitime and parental leave to have a meaningful role in their children's lives.

We women will dismantle it from our end, pushing for women to receive equal pay and more access to the boardroom, allowing our partners the freedom to be SAHDs.

Then we meet in some utopian middle ground where both men and women are free to peruse full- or -part time careers in absolutely any field with a realistic expectation of being able to reach the top. Where both men and women are primary carers for their children and each family can make a truly free choice about who works, who stays home and for how long. Where no-one is judged on appearance or denigrated for not being masculine or feminine enough. Where a man can wear a dress or a woman rock hairy armpits without anyone batting an eyelid.

This is the feminist dream OP. Do you honestly know any MRA groups who share it? If so, could you direct us to them please?

I don't spend much time on MRA forums because, as you have pointed out, they tend to attract abusive misogynists.

And there we have it, folks. Fait accompli, straight from the horse's mouth.

Goodnight.

Please answer this

Can you ink me to a single MRA forum (or site with comments) where I can observe and engage with non tar brushed activists

Or this
Can you point us in the direction of a MRA website / resource / forum / group which you feel reflects and supports your feminist values?*

Men's rights are irrelevant because they have all the rights. You have yet to say anything that discounts that.

Plus again...Feminism isn't about men. I know that's hard that men aren't the centre of the universe in one pocket of society...but hell, suck it up.

MRAs are basically the people who think that if rape came to an end, if domestic violence didn't exist, if all people were paid a fair wage and everyone was guaranteed an education, then they would have lost something and had their rights violated.

Zazzles007
Where have I lied to you? If you think I'm not a feminist, please go ahead and prove it by using any of the comments I've made in this thread. I've been here for hours, so there should be lots of material.

CKDexterHaven
I can honestly say that I have never heard of that site, and after a brief Google search turned up nothing, I'm just as in the dark about them as I've ever been. Is this an actual group, or did I miss a joke?

I don't doubt that people who call themselves MRAs and have founded influential groups have said these things. I never claimed that that was not the case. I could also cherry-pick despicable quotes from certain well-known feminists too. Does all of feminism deserve to be tarred with the same brush? Of course not!

PetulaGordino
When have I derailed anything? I've given my perspective on a feminist issue, and argued my view as a feminist (albeit a seemingly very different one than most posters here). I've also not said that feminists should work for the benefits of men over women. Early on I said that this 'us vs them' mentality was one of my main issues with certain forms of feminism, and simply suggested that we could all work together for the benefit of humanity, rather than focusing on just men or just women. You're welcome to disagree with that, but please don't include me in the same breath as you would people who make rape threats and abuse online. If anything, I hope to improve your perceptions of MRAs, by showing you that I at least also feel it is abhorrent to abuse someone simply because they hold a different opinion.

And men as a class are not oppressed. You have yet to say anything that discounts that. (unless you are talking about being oppressed by other men? But then what's that got to do with feminism? Surely that's the definition of a problem men should be sorting out.)

It is OK for us to focus on women.

Ha ha Ha, F4J.

We see you.

"I can honestly say that I have never heard of that site" Use your French dear.

OP, using the examples you've given us over the course of the thread, I can't see any which wouldn't be dealt with by dealing the sexism and inequality maintained by the patriarchy through feminism. I cannot think of an example of men's oppression that would not be 'solved' through feminism. Correct if me I am wrong.

If that is the case, why is there any need for MRAs in the first place? If the number kne priority is dealing with sexist oppression, then why not call themselves feminists? That is what feminism is for. Why would they call themselves and be part of a movement that appears to (and behaves like) antagonise feminists and feminism- when, if what you're saying is true, we are looking for the same outcome.

NormaStanleyFletcher
A few posts above I pointed out some groups that I feel do a pretty good job of representing men's interests, and admitted that I tend to stay away from online forums which call themselves MRA forums, because I find that they are not at all true to what MRA is.

scallopsrgreat
I've listed examples where I feel men suffer oppression, so I don't buy into the argument that men 'have all the rights'.

TravelinColour
I wasn't actually aware of that, thanks for directing it to my attention. Now I come to think of it, I do seem to remember some rather stupid advertising campaigns by F4J in the past, didn't they harshly use an image of a female celebrity to push a point? These would be the 'idiots in the group' I'm referring to, but admittedly it does look like these idiots have power in the group. Reading some of those examples, I take back my support of them as an example. I had only really researched their goals (which I support), and not their actions (which seem to be awful).

Oh FFS! Why doesn't the NAACP campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't the RSPB campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't Stonewall campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't NUT campaign for all humanity? Why doesn't Save the Children campaign for all humanity? Yeah, Save the Effin' Children, those bastards! Being all divisive and only caring about fookin' children! Who cares about the adults? What about adult's rights, huh? Selfish, bigoted, uncaring bastards, Save the Fuckin' Children are!

Maybe when women are seen as human beings, feminists can start campaigning about all humanity.

N

F4J? That group run by the violent alcoholic who encourages other violent men to dress up in costumes and act violently? Oh yes, fabulous example of a non misogynistic MRA group. Please, tell me in what way forcing children to spend time with men who have been abusive to their mothers represents a step forward for equality?

" I tend to stay away from online forums which call themselves MRA forums, because I find that they are not at all true to what MRA is. "

So are you also posting over there telling them that they're wrong and should be focusing on men's violence against women?

I am asking this again as no answer has been forthcoming. Why can you not link to sites where we can join with these MRA's who we can work with?

NormaStanleyFletcher

Please answer this

Can you ink me to a single MRA forum (or site with comments) where I can observe and engage with non tar brushed activists

Or this
Can you point us in the direction of a MRA website / resource / forum / group which you feel reflects and supports your feminist values?

But those examples aren't examples of oppression . They are examples of gender stereotypes not benefiting the entire population of men all the time. But it's not oppression.

Oppression is when the gender stereotype you are supposed to follow consistently puts you below the other gender in the hierarchy and that is then upheld by society.

Oppression is where all the wealth and power in society is with the other sex.

Oppression is where one sex is consistently violent to the other sex to the point where the other sex changes their behaviour and fears them.

Men as a class don't fear women being violent. You illustrated that with your third post. They are frightened of women laughing at them.

StevesBollocksAnalogy
Yes, I do think the (non-radical/trolling) MRAs and feminists are working towards the same goal. My issue is that there is no room for debate - unless you subscribe to the view that all men's issues are caused by the patriarchy, you are not a feminist, and you are not welcome in feminist groups.

Here are a few men's issues that I think might not be caused by the patriarchy. Notice I say might, these are issues which I don't think receive enough attention, so it's difficult to say what the root cause is. The problem is debate is shut down on these topics because it's claimed that they don't exist, or we'll just use the blanket explanation 'it's the fault of the patriarchy', and continue as we were.

-The achievement gap between boys and girls at school
-The higher number of women than men in higher education
-Positive discrimination
-Male suicide rates (Is it the result of societal gender stereotypes? Maybe, but we won't know until we research it properly)
-Earlier average age of death for men

Again, these are just a few examples, and I don't want to get into them in too much depth, and they may or may not be caused by the patriarchy. My grievance is that feminists are (in my experience) unwilling to accept the possibility of any explanation which does not fit their preconceptions.

I've listed examples where I feel men suffer oppression, so I don't buy into the argument that men 'have all the rights'.

To be fair, the only examples you've listed are female-on-male violence not being taken seriously enough, men not being given enough credit for being caregivers, the old insurance chestnut, poor mental health care for men and men coming off worse in custody battles.

And you have repeatedly been given examples of how feminism is battling all of those things, albeit indirectly. But are any of those things actual, ongoing and pervasive oppression? And if so, who is doing the oppressing? Also, beyond what we're already doing, what would you like women to do about it? We've already acknowledged that these are problems. We synpathise, even if we can't do much about it ourselves.

So what is it you actually want from us?

As someone else asked, are you raising these issues with men's forums? You know, the people who actually have the power to effect any change?

That Robert Webb article is great.

OP Could you please explain the point of the fat shaming week that an MRA group launched on Twitter just over a year ago? They were only shaming the women mind.

And how this helped women?

Okay, you've added a few more examples. And you say that we are "unwilling to accept the possibility of any explanation which does not fit [our] preconceptions."

What are your explanations for these issues, beyond our current societal construct (ie, patriarchy)?

And again, what do you expect women, who lack any real power across most spheres, to do about it?

Why are you not raising these issues with men? As in, raising the issues in a real "come on guys, this isn't right, what shall we do about it?" way rather than a "look at how feminists are screwing everything up and not caring about men or boys" way.

Even if boys do less well then girls at school and more women go to university, men accelerate beyond women in the world of work and earn more. So men achieve less academically and yet still attain more money and power professionally.

What about the unspoken positive discrimination that benefits men.

More women than men attempt suicide (I guess it's just another thing we're shit at).

Death rates - because men get to do all the fun stuff like have careers, drink, smoke and eat.

Anyway, women's rights do improve the lot of humanity. Consistent studies by the UN and children's charities have proved that when you educate women and economically empower them it is children who are lifted out of poverty and have better opportunities in life. An end to male violence would benefit men as much as women. Better employment rights would create fairer work environments for all and improve family life for men as well as women.