TERF

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

beach I think there's a few things I feel about this. Firstly, regardless of any risk of actual assault, I don't want to participate in other people's sexual fetishes, especially not somewhere I might be naked or vulnerable.

I also think there is an assumption that most transwomen are struggling with dysphoria and the transition is so difficult that no-one would do it just to access women's spaces. I think DonkeySkin 's point (perhaps) is that this is not always the case. There is a shift occurring from requiring a transition with treatment and surgery to accepting people's stated gender identity without question. This will expose women to men like these who want to access women's spaces and particularly lesbian spaces.

In addition, I am offended by the concept that being a woman is about wearing frilly dresses or being the object of the male gaze. It seems resolutely misogynist to me.

Sorry u meant buffy, not beach

Argh I not u these contacts are going in the bin!

Yes that's what I meant, thanks Flora.

Buffy, if the men in those threads were just playing dress-ups for kicks, I wouldn't really care either. The problem for feminists and all women is they can now legally claim to be women in many countries, and even if they don't claim this legal status all women are under pressure from 'progessives' and liberal feminists to accept them as women based on their stated gender identity.

I consider this development to be:

a) manifestly dangerous to women and girls as some of these men are actual or potential sex offenders;

b) an insult to women because it mainstreams the idea that 'woman' is nothing more than a concept that anyone can adopt, which allows men to define women on the basis of the sexist and degrading stereotypes they have imposed on us;

c) gaslighting on a massive scale because it forces women to deny reality in favour of making men feel comfortable/validated/aroused.

I find it fucking ridiculous that some bloke with a penis who has no intention of getting rid of his penis, no intention of taking hormones to stop being beardy, can simply declare that he is female and we're all supposed to say yes of course you are.

How on earth do such men, who call themselves women, differ from Conchita Wurst, who quite honestly calls himself a transvestite and is perfectly well aware that he is not actually a woman when he puts on a dress?

I cannot understand why trans activists countenance this as it seems to me that such men are undermining the whole concept of being trans.

It's their identity silly Basil , that magical, elusive force about which all people are perfectly honest all the time. And it's your cissexist bigotry that says that women have to look a particular way. Next you'll be saying women with stay chin hairs are not real women

You are shitting me right?

I'm just supposed to believe a big old bloke who tells me he's a woman? Even when literally the only thing he's done to become a woman, is say he's one?

Fuck me.

Yes AskBasil and you must be ok with sharing space naked together with her and her woman-penis. Otherwise you're a bigot and not educated enough!

Jeez, I must have forgotten "that thread"

Am a bit of a goldfish about this, of course I'd heard this but then every time someone tells me I am freshly disbelieving. I just can't get my head around it.

Surely this can't be true? Isn't this just some very marginal bunch of loons on the internet who believe this and who spend their time hounding radical feminists? (Why they don't spend their time hounding men who are equally disbelieving I can't think. Oh, wait.) Normal trans people don't think this, do they?

Tell me judges and prison warders don't agree. Please.

I shit you not. I haven't actually come across this happening with men who have done literally nothing (although I have seen transwomen who appear to have done nothing but say they are taking hormones), but that is the consequence of allowing a declaration of gender identity to determine whether one is a woman. I think there was a college student in the US who tried to run as a campus officer of some sort and said he was a woman but I think he withdrew. I discussed this with a friend of mine who works in HR in a very male dominated industry where there are few women and they need to shower at work. He was incredulous and reckoned that if the men got wind that they could declare themselves female and access the women's shower room, it would cause him a huge problem. There is quite a lot of bullying going on in his workplace and he reckoned the men wouldn't hesitate, especially if a few of them did it together, to do it to bully someone they want off their crew or to check out a good looking woman.

What do trans activists have to say about that scenario Flora?

Do they acknowledge that this is a potential problem?

Basil it's not just marginal loons. This is very real in the US and Canada and the political basis of it is gaining ground here.

Basil I've heard seemingly rational people say that it wouldn't happen, because of the stigma associated with being trans and especially that men would not give up their elevated status as men "just" to access women's spaces. Of course, they wouldn't be giving up anything because everyone can see, using the eyes on their heads, that they are men and they would continue to be treated as men for every purpose.

It seems to me if I believed that (which I don't) I would not want to remove the stigma associated with being trans because that would be dangerous for women.

To be clear, I don't want trans people to be stigmatised nor discriminated against, but as a feminist I'm going to put women first.

Just not in the UK but in some parts of the US and Canada you can. Not sure about other countries.

liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

sexnotgender.com/2013/09/23/if-transwomen-are-women-then-what-does-being-a-woman-mean/

I really like both these articles around the issue.

Elizabeth Hungerford who wrote these articles also co runs a facebook group that brings Trans people and radical feminists together, to help build bridges. You don't have to join to read it. I have found it interesting to read how there are some Trans people who don't agree with the dominant view either.

Buffy good luck with your diagnosis

It's a difficult issue and it's made more difficult because a lot of people are clearly suffering and need solutions for the problems they face.

On an individual level, it makes no difference if a man declares himself as a woman and dresses in particular ways. I am a great believer in the principle that if someone is doing no one any harm, they should be allowed to live as they want.

It only becomes an issue in women only spaces, for example communal showers with pre op MtoF who have penises. Or when it comes to feminism and we are told that we should be focussing on Trans issues.

Most MtoF simply get on with their lives. It is a small but very vocal minority who cause lots of problems. And they can only do so because they are supported by women.

The irony is, it's the women who call themselves feminists who support them.

I presume right wing women don't give house-room to this nonsense?

I think there are right-wing women who find it more acceptable to believe the "born in the wrong body" rather than accept gender non-conformity, and especially more acceptable than homosexuality.

I cannot imagine how trans*men would feel safe in men's naked spaces.

Surely a transsexual (still bearing a penis) is safer surrounded by naked men than a women who has had to have her naked space invaded by a person with a penis?

God this is so hard, this discussion.

I don't want to share my naked spaces with people with penises. Am I like, terrified of penises? I'm pretty certain Germaine Greer writes scathingly on this. But I'm also sure she's not saying, get into my sauna with me, pantrans women.

At the same time, I'm fairly certain that if I were a transwoman I'd be pretty terrified of hetrosexual males, who are horribly violent towards people who in some perceived way undermine masculinity. I would not want to be a transwoman in a male changing room.