TERF

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

If you can't make reference to a "male" body though, then equally we can't make reference to the "female" body? And then we have the problem of limiting discussing feminism to things that are not affected by our biology.

You can Butler the answer to how a body can have a penis but be female: she argue that gender is a surface effect, a performance of a bodily style that comes into being specifically through the performance and does not exist as an inherent originate inside the body of the performer. The designation of that body "as" male.or.female at birth is the basis on which that individual comes to know and embody the bodily style that is expected of them. Iyswim, I'm distracted while writing this.

Personally, the use of the words man and male privilege when discussing transwomen is upsetting and basically if you use it, you believe transwomen are really men who are full of male privilege and entitlement.

That's your right. But to me, it's silencing and designed to be upsetting and offensive. Just like the word and use of TERF rightly upsets and silences people.

Kim147, I have used man and male privilege on this thread so I guess you are referring to me here.

Actually, I don't use those terms in order to upset and cause offense. I use them because I believe that a male bodied person who has been socialized as a male bodied person and who acts like someone who has been socialized as a male bodied person, to be a man. Because in my value system, world view and lived experience, that is what a man is. The fact that these male bodied persons are policing my language and demanding that I change it, only confirms what I believe. Male bodied persons' feelings are not more important than female bodied persons' feelings.

I see transwomen acting with male privilege all the time, I see them acting entitled all the time - are you saying that I am not allowed to talk about that, using the appropriate language, because to do so can hurt male bodied persons' feelings? Because that is what it sounds like - I am being asked to put male bodied feelings above female bodied feelings and reality. And I'm struggling to see why I would do that - why would I as a feminist, prioritize male bodied issues when the whole of my movement is based on prioritizing female bodied issues?

I suppose I could do it to be nice, to be kind to male bodied persons, to act feminine and defer to male bodied humans, to act the way is expected of female bodied persons - that they submit to male bodied persons and prioritize their feelings and wishes. But I don't want to - because it is too important to me.

I will not defer to male bodied persons telling me what language and tone I may use when discussing how male bodied persons oppress female bodied persons. I will not have my language policed when discussing how male bodied persons infringe on female bodied persons boundaries and space or tell female bodied persons what to think or what they may believe or what language they may use to talk about their oppression. I will not lie about my female bodied person's reality in order to protect male bodied people's feelings.

Kim147.

I am very sorry that you have had such a hard life and have to deal with so much. I really am.

And I am sorry if my politics and what is important to me hurts your feelings. I really am.

I am sorry that you are dealing with self-hate and I hope you manage to find peace and happiness.

But I cannot lie about what I believe, and lay my politics and commitment to women's rights aside because that would hurt me.

kim MRAs tell us all the time that the fact that some men are treated badly by other men proves there is no male privilege. Women are co-opted into promoting the same message by trans activists. No matter how badly a man is treated by other men and how little he feels he has benefitted from patriarchy, there are women who have been trained to prioritise his feelings and who will do so, even to the extent of agreeing that he is the mostest oppressedest. It's gaslighting.

What Flora said.

I cross-posted with your last post kim. I'm sorry your life is hard and you have had to deal with terrible behaviour, presumably for not conforming to society's expectations of how you should be. But patriarchy and gender conformism hurts all women (both as a class and, to varying extents, individually). Feminists must be able to name and fight their oppression without having to gag and bind themselves to avoid offending you.

Well no-one said you were lucky. That doesn't mean you don't have male privilege. Frankly I think you're exercising it right now in demanding we discuss feminism in a way that doesn't offend you. I don't see the difference between this and the men on the NAM thread or in fact, men all over the place expressing their offence at women discussing the misogyny and male violence behind the Elliot Walker killings.

kim, why are you on a feminist board bleating about how feminists need to understand the difficulties of trans lives? Why should we? Feminism is not a catch all movement for any group of people who feel they need a boost. It's about women, and putting women first. We care about women.. You, by your own admition, don't fit into the same bracket as us, which is why you've declared that "we" don't understand "you". Fine. Find solace among trans people who DO care about the difficulties of trans lives and leave those of us who are concerned about the oppression of women to get on with it in peace..
... unless you're trying to obstruct the work of feminists by diverting their energy away from women and onto transwomen. That would be a male thing to do.

It's the "But ..." part of your post that illuminates. Why do you consider it necessary or appropriate to criticise feminists as part of this discussion? It's like the MRA refrain "women do it too". Exactly like it.

God you did it again! Can't you see how inappropriate this is, as well as being completely false?

I'm not sure that I'd ever describe anyone as 'lucky' per se in regards to male privilege. It's really clear that patriarchal constructions of masculinity have done you great and ongoing harm Kim and in that sense I'd regard us having a sympathetic perspectives.

At the same time, though, in the terms of discussion and discourse, the designation you received at birth as male, means that you have to an extent been socialised with male privilege; about what you can speak about, about how people should regard that speech, about your entitlements and the relevance of your experience of others' speech to the conversation, in a way that I have not. I know that in other contexts you have recognised male privileges as they apply to gender analysis so see no reason why you'd not see that this one also may have applied to your early (doubtlessly traumatic) socialisation.

I hope you can see why feminists might experience TERF accusations as part of that package of entitlement that comes from male gender assignment at birth, and such silencing tactics feel like an attempt to protect that privilege rather than relinquish in the process of rejecting male gender assignment at birth.

I have not been subject to the same punishment of 'not doing my gender correctly' as you have and for this I am thankful and recognise the privilege of feeling unthreatened by others' perception of me as basically female. But you have occupied a position of privilege relative to me in regards discourse which isn't to say you are lucky or should be thankful, and haven't been injured. None of those negative experiences mean you have not been privileged in other ways, though I do accept that you'd rather have none of the privilege and none of the punishments that have been meted out to you on account of your gender assignment at birth.

When people shout TERF though, that's what I think: I think they want to be female except when it comes to access to and authority in discourse. To an extent, I feel the same way; who would want to be constantly interrupted, derailed, silenced or described as unhinged, irrational or hysterical? Really, though, blaming feminists for the ways that discourse excludes speakers as (trans)women is, and I've thought for ages about how to describe this, a fucking outrage.

Kim

I also think disagreement with is very different from silencing.

You very effectively silenced me on another thread by refusing to engage with any of the points I made in response to you. To a degree, engagement is precisely, allowing another's voice to be heard. By disagreeing with them explicitly you are not silencing them but acknowledging them.

When you misuse the term silencing in this way, I feel you are minimising the actual political silencing we would refer to in gender analysis.