Amnesty International says laws against buying sex breach men's human rights

[DonkeySkin]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545003/Amnesty-calls-legal-prostitution-Charity-says-laws-ban-people-buying-selling-sex-breach-human-rights.html

The organisation is planning to adopt a position that calls for the full decriminalisation of the sex industry, including johns and pimps.

It is tabling a paper for its UK branch to vote on that says it is a human right for 'consenting adults' to purchase sexual consent from another person (regardless of the desperate circumstances that person may be in, presumably). The paper also devotes time to that latest favourite cover-all for sex-industry advocates, 'the rights of the disabled', as a reason to allow the continuing expansion of the global sex industry with no oversight or concern from governments.

Apparently the human rights of the (overwhelmingly) women and girls who are coerced, trafficked and enslaved inside the sex industry to satisfy the demand from men for paid sex are of no concern.

Oh, sorry - Amnesty does remember to devote a whole two words to this, conceding that prostitution takes place in an 'imperfect context'. That would presumably be the context of a worldwide patriarchy that devalues female human beings, denies them education, safety and fairly paid work, and tells men they have the right to use their bodies for sex regardless of their actual desires. Not to mention, systemic racism, colonialism and exploitative capitalism.

Good to know Amnesty is prepared to stand up for the most vulnerable people on earth - male sex buyers.

You don't need to understand us. You need to understand the women that you pay to fuck.

Go away and have some anal sex performed on you repeatedly in one night and then come back and tell us that having strangers shoot jizz up your rear is the same as any other labour transaction. Remember the deductions for your pimp when you're working out whether it's economically viable.

How amazing that two ethical punters just happen to come across the FWR section of Mumsnet.

I know, Blistory, it's almost as if it's a self defined and self serving category ...

A claim that women in prostitution are well paid while acknowledging that various pimps are taking an unknown cut of what they are paid is mere speculation to make the punter feel better about the exploitation he inflicts.

A statement about an unknown person's views about a subject not under discussion is mere speculation to deflect from the exploitation inflicted by the punter.

In politics, when seeking to make a change to improve society, it is an ineffective strategy to say that one thing cannot be changed or improved unless all other things are also changed or improved. Nothing would ever get done. Punters generally do not realise this because they are only seeking to justify their exploitation and to deflect criticism from others. They are generally not engaged in broader politics and have no understanding of how policy and laws are developed and made.

malms, I think this this point will probably go above your head - but I don't believe that there is such a thing as a punter who treats prostitutes well. Paying a woman to fuck, when she doesn't want to fuck you, is not treating a person well. It is a despicable act. Even if you don't verbally abuse her/beat her up/pressurise her into things she doesn't want to do.

The men who write positive reviews on PN are not being nice about the prostitutes. They are treating her like a piece of meat.

The men who write negative reviews on PN are not even ashamed - they describe raping the women, suspecting trafficked women, suspecting underage girls. Do they report? Oh no. They just get on the net and write a negative review.

@SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 10-Mar-14 18:16:13

Malms how do you know the women you pay to fuck are not underage or trafficked?

I avoid younger women on purpose to avoid the risk of having sex with an underage girl.

Do you think they'd tell you if they were?

Of course we know that they would be unlikely to do that, but I am sure that I would feel if a woman was in a stressful or coercive situation and without any control over her environment. I look for red flags, so to speak. I may not be the sharpest guy around the block but I assure you that I make a honest effort.

Do you believe that laws should aim to protect the most vulnerable in society?

Of course I do. But laws should be pragmatic, not theoretical. You can make a lot of damage while trying to do good things.

@FloraFox Mon 10-Mar-14 18:20:56

If that report is correct (and we know nothing about its scope, methodology or definition of exploited), it seems good evidence for criminalising pimps and punters. That is the way to deal with this unacceptable level of exploitation.

I think otherwise, and I explained my view already.

By the way, what about women who want to sell sex? Shouldn't they have the right to do so?

@Blistory Mon 10-Mar-14 18:24:02

How amazing that two ethical punters just happen to come across the FWR section of Mumsnet.

It is selection bias. Clients of sex workers who are interested in learning more, because they want to do the right thing, are more likely to scour the Internet for information and debates. Illiterate brutes and abusers on the other hand...

I avoid younger women on purpose to avoid the risk of having sex with an underage girl.

What a terrible shame you're not the only punter in the world then.

Some punters are having sex with underage, trafficked women. You say, Oh, but I'm a nice one, I don't do that? Why are women trafficked for prostitution then?

The Invisible Men project reports on enough men that do suspect the woman is unwilling - in a stressful and coercive situation - for this to be a problem with men's 'right' to buy women to fuck.

Let's be clear here. You may choose to call yourself a client to disguise what it is that you truly do. In reality, you are a rapist. You may not see that as the face that looks back at you in the mirror but it is what you are.

Doing the right thing, in your case, malms, would mean not fucking women that don't want to fuck you.

Just think how many of the world's problems would be solved if men just didn't fuck women who didn't want to fuck them?

A punter will give lip service to the notion of attempting harm reduction by any means other than by going after the source of the harm - the punters. He deludes himself into thinking this makes him a compassionate and ethical punter but he is not, he is just another pay to rape punter. He might give further lip service to the "rights" of the women to sell sex. He tells himself he is the true feminist because he fights for the rights of desperate and vulnerable women to put their holes at the service of his dick.

What a fucking hero.

Just think how many of the world's problems would be solved if men just didn't fuck women who didn't want to fuck them?

YY
Also posting to fill up thread with a post that isn't a creepy punter post

This thread will soon be full.
to all awesome FWR:ers

Exactly Flora and Sabrina.

How to Reduce Harm 101: Don't Fuck Women Who Don't Want To Fuck You.

We see a variety of punters on these threads and there are a number of commonalities. We can see overall that the punter really is a rather stupid specimen.

He can't tell see how contradictory it is to argue that pay to rape sex is a private matter yet it is work like any other job. He can't even keep that line straight, we have yet to see the punter who says women should be required to accept pay to rape or lose their benefits.

He also can't tell the difference between massage and sex, stacking shelves and sex, working in a sweat shop and sex. And yet he thinks it is we who have a problem with sex.

He believes he has a special power enabling him to tell when a woman is vulnerable, abused or coerced even though her survival may depend on him not being able to tell and even though such special power has never manifested itself in the presence of an actual woman. So as between believing that his special power may not be fully functional or believing the existence of vulnerable, abused or coerced women is exaggerated, he believes the latter. Safe in his delusion that his special power cannot possibly be, not that special or powerful.

He considers himself well read and educated on the topic. He can parse through academic and government papers to extract the information he needs to justify his continued pay to rape. Definitions can be stretched or shrunk, women he doesn't consider relevant (usually street workers) can be disregarded and reports of exploitation can be swept aside as not affecting all women in prostitution (with an extra nod to his delusion of being a good punter by saying it's "too high", wrings hands, but existing laws are there for that). He is invested in considering himself educated on issues relating to prostitution but is usually not engaged in any other social or political issues.

The best evidence however of the punter's stupidity and delusion is that he believes that the women he pays to rape like him, that they are grateful to be fucked by him because he is better than all the much worse rapists who would be fucking her. He is doing her a good deed by taking advantage of her vulnerability and desperation by paying her to fuck him despite the fact that she does not want him . He fails in the most basic understanding of prostitution, that for prostitution to exist there must be a man who wants sex and a woman who does not want to have sex with him.

You can make a lot of damage while trying to do good things.

You're doing the damage as a punter. All the damage in prostitution is caused by punters/pimps/traffickers.

Although I can see your point. Your punter mate zeffa thinks he's doing a good thing by paying women for sex. Unfortunately, he's doing a lot of damage to vulnerable, abused, desperate women.

I am assuming you are electing not to use your red flag system in your conversation with the women here. You are talking in a patronising manner, and may well be setting off all manner of triggers re: being talked down to in general life by men, having their voices marginalised if not ignored completely.

If however this is indicative of your general attitude towards women I am afraid to break it to you buddy but it's a racing certainty you have contributed to some desperate soul's wretched circumstances.

If you really want to engage, listen to Buffy and in fact just listen generally and become more familiar with the feminist position from more than just a superficial level.

I am assuming you are electing not to use your red flag system in your conversation with the women here. You are talking in a patronising manner, and may well be setting off all manner of triggers re: being talked down to in general life by men, having their voices marginalised if not ignored completely.

If however this is indicative of your general attitude towards women I am afraid to break it to you buddy but it's a racing certainty you have contributed to some desperate soul's wretched circumstances.

If you really want to engage, listen to Buffy and in fact just listen generally and become more familiar with the feminist position from more than just a superficial level.

I was just going to say that dervel deconstructed zeffa quite brilliantly - want him to do you too, malms?

Neither I would want to pay her to fuck her, but I do. Am I being exploited because of this? I don't think so.

What are you trying to say here?

You want to fuck her, but she won't. Unless you pay her. Makes you sound like a bit of an inadequate human being doesn't it?

@SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 10-Mar-14 18:47:09

Some punters are having sex with underage, trafficked women. You say, Oh, but I'm a nice one, I don't do that? Why are women trafficked for prostitution then?

Because there are men who want to have sex with underage women and the law, or law enforcement, allows them to get away with it.

The Invisible Men project reports on enough men that do suspect the woman is unwilling - in a stressful and coercive situation - for this to be a problem with men's 'right' to buy women to fuck.

But this is not the same! Trafficking and exploitation is not 100% of the sex trade, not even close, thus it doesn't make sense to blame clients of sex workers in general.

Law makers should get their act straight, and make such situations easy to spot and easy to report. That's it.