Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Amnesty International says laws against buying sex breach men's human rights

999 replies

DonkeySkin · 28/01/2014 08:36

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545003/Amnesty-calls-legal-prostitution-Charity-says-laws-ban-people-buying-selling-sex-breach-human-rights.html

The organisation is planning to adopt a position that calls for the full decriminalisation of the sex industry, including johns and pimps.

It is tabling a paper for its UK branch to vote on that says it is a human right for 'consenting adults' to purchase sexual consent from another person (regardless of the desperate circumstances that person may be in, presumably). The paper also devotes time to that latest favourite cover-all for sex-industry advocates, 'the rights of the disabled', as a reason to allow the continuing expansion of the global sex industry with no oversight or concern from governments.

Apparently the human rights of the (overwhelmingly) women and girls who are coerced, trafficked and enslaved inside the sex industry to satisfy the demand from men for paid sex are of no concern.

Oh, sorry - Amnesty does remember to devote a whole two words to this, conceding that prostitution takes place in an 'imperfect context'. That would presumably be the context of a worldwide patriarchy that devalues female human beings, denies them education, safety and fairly paid work, and tells men they have the right to use their bodies for sex regardless of their actual desires. Not to mention, systemic racism, colonialism and exploitative capitalism.

Good to know Amnesty is prepared to stand up for the most vulnerable people on earth - male sex buyers.

OP posts:
Blistory · 09/03/2014 23:04

What about your mother ? Is she proud of the way you abuse vulnerable women with your penis ? Or do you only share your altruistic rape stories with your punter pals ?

CaptChaos · 09/03/2014 23:05

And of course you care what people on this thread think of you, or you wouldn't be trying to justify yourself, zeffa. You just don't care what the women you pay to exploit think of you. They despise you, by the way, every single one of them.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 09/03/2014 23:10

Go and have a wank zeffa. It's cheaper and you don't risk harming an abused and desperate woman.

FloraFox · 09/03/2014 23:17

Bad people can have friends. Having friends is not an indicator of being a good person.

HowardTJMoon · 09/03/2014 23:22

Ooh, one more question zeffa - how much extra do you have to pay them to get them to go for a drink with you first? And when they do, do you pretend that they're your girlfriend?

GarthsUncle · 10/03/2014 00:07

If buying sex was made illegal, Zeffa, would you stop?

Dervel · 10/03/2014 02:55

Look Zeffa it is abundantly clear you do not see yourself as a villain, and I am also well aware I am probably wasting my words here. It would take a near Herculean effort on your part to clear your mind of the arguments you have constructed and see this from alternative perspectives, the consequences of such would probably be personally devastating for you.

I am also not in this for the debate (although I do love debates), in this instance this involves dimensions where my life experience is lacking and I am most definitely not an authority. I have read a lot of links from both sides and quite frankly I have no clue what the "right" answer is neither side has me entirely convinced, but my bias will always be to the vulnerable in society, over some sort of perceived right of men to buy sex. Which is why the stance of Amnesty worries me deeply.

When it comes to a woman's right to sell sex, I do not feel I can answer that because I am a man. My lack of lived experience either by being a woman or that I know personally anyone who has worked in the sex industry, barring a woman I met at Chicago airport and we spoke for a few hours who turned out to work as a stripper. The only meaningful conclusions I drew from that encounter is a) she wasn't ashamed of it (and nor should she be), and b) It certainly wasn't something either of us wanted to discuss at great length, and often you natter about your job if it's something that fulfils you, and as such it most likely didn't for her.

What I do feel comfortable in stating with certainty, and is something I know you have blocked out is that this issue intimately effects every woman on here who has replied to you. Thing is this isn't just a debate to be won or lost, although plenty have engaged with high levels of erudition and reasoned argument. This is a simple cause and effect string. We as a society objectify women, you cannot argue with me there. The sheer fact someone posted up thread how they were tossed a pound coin and indecently propositioned at the tender age of 14 should be making you go "what the absolute fuck?", and scratch the 14 part that shouldn't happen to ANYONE period the age just makes it worse. The sex industry is a backdrop to and contributes to this treatment of ALL women wether they are sex workers or not.

You can cordon off in your own mind that you are respectful, and that you want more than just sex, and that you don't treat women badly, but you yourself seem to be tacitly aware that many escorts have abusive backgrounds, and that there are some very bad men who do abuse them. That being said you probably HAVE been that guy, maybe not deliberately or with malice of forethought, but the more often you have done it the greater the chance that without knowing some desperate soul has cried themselves to sleep trying to forget an experience that filled you with such joy.

Now I am sure that thought has occurred to you, but you have performed the mental gymnastics required to bury that thought under arguments that it's not your responsibility, as you couldn't know. You would never have knowingly contributed to another soul's pain, and that if not you it could have been someone much worse. Here's the thing though it could also have been someone better! That woman could have met men who didn't treat her like an object, lived in a world that judged her on the value of her character.

To tell a personal tale that is as close to relevant as I can muster. I was out drinking in my early 20s and we were joined by a young woman who was a friend of a friend, late teens iirc. She was absolutely gorgeous, as it turned out she suffered from domestic abuse from her mother and had been kicked out the house for the night as her mother's boyfriend was staying over. Why this had to be the case I still to this day have no idea. To cut a long story short she ended up back at my place, and made it clear sex was available if I wanted it. Now my response was a polite refusal and made it clear a bed for the night was not contingent on anything else. If I had slept with her I would have felt like a royal shit, why? Because there was a power differential. Money creates at least for me a similar power differential.

Now perhaps you would have done the same thing I would have. Maybe you wouldn't I don't know. I am going to make a whopping assumption here about you. I think you've wrestled with pondering this too. I suspect judging from how much you've read into this, researched it that once long ago you had that slight sinking feeling in the bottom of your heart, that maybe there was something a bit off about the whole business. Maybe you buried that niggle underneath a mammoth amount of rationalisation and justification. Maybe it truly is gone now, nothing but a mere memory in the enlightened paragon of liberalism that types before me now.

I also suspect something else I think you want companionship and real intimacy along with this sex. You mentioned you are disabled, you mentioned you weren't handsome. Maybe you don't feel worthy of it on your own merits. In which case in your own way you have objectified yourself in some way and found yourself lacking in value other than monetarily. I also question precisely why you come to a feminist board to discuss this, you don't seem stupid and must be cognisant of the reaction you would find here. I wonder if that niggle deep in your heart was secretly hoping someone would tear down that house of cards your intellect has constructed. If that proves to be the case read this, don't reply. Pick up the phone contact your close friends and tell them you've had enough of paying for someone, and that you want somebody real, and that you need support.

WhentheRed · 10/03/2014 05:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GarthsUncle · 10/03/2014 05:57

Great post, Dervel. I think you are right.

zeffa101 · 10/03/2014 07:20

WhentheRed - In the example you postulate the lending of money would entail getting the borrower (almost certainly) into even greater debt than they where in prior to the money having been loaned to them. I, on the other hand am providing money, in return for a service which will enable the person to extricate themselves from debt. I wish the world wasn't a place in which people ended up in difficult situations, however it is and if I can help someone out while, at the same time obtaining companionship together with other things then there is no harm in doing so. In fact without any prompting from me a number of working girls have said that I am helping them to clear their debts.

zeffa101 · 10/03/2014 07:42

Dervel - You are a truly compassionate human being and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for your truly thought provoking reply.
In the case you mention of the young lady who offered you sex I, also would have refused the offer.
Throwing money at a 14-year-old girl and asking for sex is horrendous behaviour and no one other than a paedophile would condone it. There is a massive difference though between someone who pays for sex with an adult and is horrified by the idea of abusing a child and the kind of person who tries to impose their perverted sexual desires on an innocent child.
I don't recollect saying that I wasn't hansome. In fact a number of women (not working girls) have told me that I am hansome and I have had several relationships with non workng women during which I was faithful to my partner.
As a child I did suffer physical abuse from my mother's (then) partner so I do feel a particular empathy for sex workers who have been subjected to terrible abuse.
I once had a lady visit me (we had been chatting on the phone for a while and she had indicated that she was happy to provide sex in return for cash). However, on getting to my home she told me she had changed her mind and asked that I call her a taxi which, of course I did.
I do empathise with the ladies I see. It sounds trite but they are, as has often been said someone's sister, daughter etc. However, when push comes to shove we are both (the working lady and I) consenting adults and it is no one's business what either of us do behind closed doors. The wee small voice of conscience whispers in the dead of night, believe me it does but criminalising me and the others who pay for sex will not help to protect working girls, it will make their lives more dangerous.
I will ponder on what you say. Thanks again

zeffa101 · 10/03/2014 07:54

GarthsUncle - I don't accept the right of the state to criminalise consensual sex between consenting adults so a mere change in the law would not prevent me from seeing working girls. I already exercise caution when making bookings and the caution exercised would increase where the law to be changed.

zeffa101 · 10/03/2014 08:19

I will not contribute further to this thread. Thank you to those who have remained polite despite vehemently disagreeing with my position. In short There is no point in me restating my views (anyone who wishes to know them can read the thread).
I will monitor with interest but, as I said above contribute no more as I feel I have said all I can say on the subject.

GarthsUncle · 10/03/2014 08:42

If you'd grown up with it being criminal,do you think your answer would have been different?

Upthread you linked to something that said in 2007 that street prostitution had dropped by one third in Sweden, eight years after the law changed, and that indoor prostitution was the same or slightly increased. To me that seems like good progress. You also mentioned that the transactions remaining were riskier - I'm not surprised that the "more hardened" p*nters are the ones still seeking sex whilst the more law abiding are now staying home. I think the more hardened users are roughly as numerate as before, they are obviously a greater proprtion of all users.But if there are fewer overall acts and fewer prostituted women, that is a good postive start to changing societal attitudes.

My cousin and I were discussing how our fathers used to drink and drive - not to the point of Incapability but two glasses not one etc - it was socially far more acceptable - but neither of us would dream of doing so,since (I think) the limit came down before we were of driving age and there has been lots of work by successive governments to change social attitudes. That's how I would see the Swedish model working here - no overnight sensation but a reduction over time and a change in attitudes over time.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 10/03/2014 09:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zeffa101 · 10/03/2014 09:04

GarthUncle - There are many studies out there which indicate that while street prostitution in Sweden does, indeed appear to have dropped there has been an increase in indoor sex work to a significant degree. Also sex worker organisations, among others have questioned the official stats.
You mention drink driving. I agree that has, thankfully decreased but drink driving can be relatively easily monitored and/or policed while indoor prostitution can not, for obvious reasons be so easily monitored.
I think a better analogy to that of prostitution is prohibition in America which, quite simply failed to work.
I grew up in a society in which pot and other drugs are illegal but this didn't prevent me from smoking pot once. It made me feel ill so I have no desire to repeat the experience. Smoking weed is fairly indemic despite the law criminalising it as is the taking of harder drugs such as cocaine which I have no intention of trying. Consequently just because a thing is crimalised it doesn't follow that it will deminish significantly. So I guess the answer to your question is that if I had grown up knowing that paying for sex was illegal then there is a fair chance that I would have still paid for a personal service.

zeffa101 · 10/03/2014 09:14

GarthsUncle - I meant to mention in my previous post that there is evidence (some of it linked to by me) that criminalising the purchasing of sexual services makes the lives of sex workers more difficult. Of course people can (and no doubt will) respond that he would say that wouldn't he, he is a punter after all. However the studies have been conducted by sex worker organisations and the article on Total Politics is by a leading light in The Ugly Mugs Scheme which helps sex workers by publicising pictures of vilent clients. I, as a client would, very likely escape detection given that I exercise caution and the activity takes place in the privacy of my home so any change in the law would not impact other than making me cautious than at present. However any change in the law would, I believe be more detramental to sex workers. People can disregard my words but that is what I genuinely feel.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/03/2014 10:36

Interesting item on this subject on Women's hour at the moment.

zeffo, I think dervel is likely to be correct. Since you have now disclosed that you also suffered abuse as a child, I wonder if this has affected your self-worth to the extent that you feel you are not worthy of normal real-life relationships and intimacy. So you pay for it - little chance of rejection and less risk of you being vulnerable to being hurt by a real life relationship, I suppose.

Nothing you have said here though, about your own personal behaviour, can negate the very real harm to women and girls that is inherent in prostitution. You have no real way of knowing whether the young student you paid to fuck went home and cried herself to sleep, or dulled the pain with drugs/alcohol. You have no clue of the affect of unwanted penetration on the long term mental health of the women you fuck.

FloraFox · 10/03/2014 16:43

Buffy I rarely disagree with you but I have no respect for zeffa. I don't think it was courageous to admit he is a punter on here, we knew he was anyway. His post after yours, he says he empathises with the women because they are "someone's sister, daughter etc.", not just because they are "someone".

All the posturing throughout this thread with arguments and justifications still come down to paying to have sex on a woman who doesn't want him. He's a charity-punter, he thinks he's going a good deed by fucking these women. It's vile.

WhosLookingAfterCourtney · 10/03/2014 16:48

Thanks for fwr - love to see you hand an mra his arse on a plate.

Malms · 10/03/2014 16:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WhentheRed · 10/03/2014 16:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed · 10/03/2014 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/03/2014 17:22

Are they on a tag team? Confused

We've roasted the arse of one, now up pops another.

I know why you guys want to purchase sex, malms, but I won't the rub the truth in your face.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 10/03/2014 17:23

Oh, also malms - are you one of the punters described on Woman's Hour this morning? Who had sex with a prostitute who had 2 broken arms?