is there and 'official' feminist view on prostitution? and what is it?

[ohnoitshimagain]

hi, just signed up and want to get to the bottom of this issue

ok, I'm sure there's not an official view as such, but how about a consensus or just your own personal view on this topic

1. Should prostitution be fully legalised including brothels?

I believe it should in the modern day, because of freedom

and I'm talking here about female prostitutes and male clients

hope to hear some responses, thanks, btw I"m a man

[CoteDAzur]

Buffy - It sounds like what you really want outlawed is slavery and forced prostitution, not prostitution in general (which includes willing prostitutes).

[pokerface1]

"Or are you seriously suggesting that if they refused to have sex after the man has paid for their 'time and companionship' that that would be ok?"

Yes. If you don't believe me why don't you try asking someone who works as an escort (see the twitter links posted earlier) and see what she says?

And if a client proceeds to force her into sex without her consent we know what will happen... (he goes to prison for rape)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-25404711

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

As per usual, and how all these threads go, is that people fall into the trap of looking at it from the prostituted women's POV... their choices, their impact their rights

I don't take their agency away but my own spotlight is on the men that use them

their choices their impact their rights

it puts a whole different slant on it folks, if your bottom line is that men do not have the right to pay women to ignore the fact they are not sexually attracted to them

[pokerface1]

Slavery and trafficking is already illegal in the UK, and the police do try and look for victims and trafficking. This summer the Edinburgh saunas were all raided and more recently flats in Soho were raided (but we haven't had any follow-up to tell us how many victims they have rescued).

You might have heard of operations Pentameter 1 and 2? They were massive 6-month UK-wide investigations to try and find victims. They were failures.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

[pokerface1]

Slightly off-topic but it is interesting to note in that Maggie McNeill article sex for payment has been observed in chimps.

Not only chimps, but also in penguins. Males have been offering rocks (vital for building nests) to females in exchange for sex-

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/60302.stm

[TheDoctrineOfSanta]

Please say "evolution", poker face, then I can call House.

[pokerface1]

I could play bingo myself-

"Consent cannot possibly be given if money is accepted"- check

"It must be rape/coercion if the worker does not fancy the client"- check

"Women (or women's bodies) are being bought/sold"- check

"Would you do it/would you like a family member of yours to do it"- check

[CaptChaosGlitteryBaubles]

Yes. If you don't believe me why don't you try asking someone who works as an escort (see the twitter links posted earlier) and see what she says?

Already have, and no, it was never ever ok. I wonder whose imagination these halcyon escorts come from?

And if a client proceeds to force her into sex without her consent we know what will happen... (he goes to prison for rape)

1 rape conviction out of how many complaints? Out of how many rapes? Of how many women? In which areas of prostitution? 1 woman in Bristol... how many from Soho? Glasgow? Edinburgh? Even you have to see that your argument is rubbish....

You conflate your illusion of high class escorts with the reality for the vast majority of prostituted women.

You fail to see the damage that commodifying sex has on women as a class. Or you simply don't care.

As Anyfucker said, and as has been asked of the pro lobby ad nauseam, what about men's choices in this? What does it say about men as a class that they are happy to pay a woman who doesn't fancy or even like them to allow them to use them as a wank sock?

Anyway... the evolution strawman has been stuffed, so I'm out, there's no point in debating serious subjects with someone who is completely unable to do so.

[Skogkatter]

Feminism has no consensus. It is a way of thinking (or of life) but it is individual, some are radical, some are less so, some focus on different things to others, some see one thing as an issue whereas others don't. So there is no real consensus (I've met a "feminist" who saw prostitution as empowering ).

Fwiw, I massively disagree with prostitution. Even taking possible trafficking and abuse out of the picture, I find the idea that anyone can happily 'buy' the right to carry out an action on someone which has emotional and physical consequences on them. How many prositutes are rich (or started out rich)? Most prostitutes aren't exactly living the life of Riley. When you are poor, there are two options- surviving (and being a prostitute) and not. I don't think many would consider those reasonable choices iyswim.

[pokerface1]

Like I said, escorts earn £100 per hour and upwards. I guess they can't be that poor.

[SolidGoldBrass]

OK, the argument which insists that sex which is paid for cannot be consensual is a damaging and dangerous argument. Because if you take the position that no one can consent to have sex for money then you are stating that those who take money for sexual activity then can't or shouldn't complain when they do get raped (ie the client forces additional non-agreed activity on the sex worker).

And what about other activities/services which are sometimes but not always paid for? There was a thread on MN only a few days ago about inserting suppositories (into someone else's ringpiece rather than self-insertion). That's a job some people would find distasteful, others would feel they could do it for a family member if they had to, and yet others do it regularly as part of their jobs. Some people are a lot more squeamish/sensitive than others about a variety of things.

And WRT those who pay for services - some people would rather die than have others perform an intimate service for them (whether that's something sexual or needing assistance with toilet stuff), others will struggle to manage alone as long as possible, and some would rather pay to have their lives made more comfortable and pleasant even if they could manage to do whatever it is for themselves.

[SolidGoldBrass]

It's worth considering how often stuff such as helping people with their toilet issues is considered women's work, which should be done out of love and duty rather than for a wage. Women are often criticized for refusing to take on the caring responsibility for family members - particularly ILs - and choosing to pay others to do the work. Deciding to pay someone to provide a service rather than demanding a reluctant friend or relative to perform that service for you isn't necessarily reprehensible. Even if the service in question is something that you want rather than something that you need. People are paid to clean houses, remove rubbish or listen to egotists talking about themselves for hours, after all.

[DadWasHere]

What does it say about men as a class that they are happy to pay a woman who doesn't fancy or even like them to allow them to use them as a wank sock?

Depends. The higher the percentage of men who do the more it would say about men 'as a class'. The lower the percentage the less valid the question.

[thisismyYuleTimenickname]

I would like to know why blokes like OP keep signing up (often under different names) here. Like, what do they expect? That all mums here will be converted to being pro-prostitution....? So if they use prostitutes while in a relationship their DW will be cool about it?

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

Personally, I think they get a little stiffie from getting mumz all outraged and like to give it a stroke.

Until the next time.

[thisismyYuleTimenickname]

Yeah that sounds quite accurate. They must have awfully sad lives...

[FloraFox]

Sex is different from other "intimate services" because it's the only "service" where the service provider can produce a new person as a result of the activity. That is not a workplace hazard that applies anywhere. This notion of construing man-pleasing sex as just another service is deluded nonsense. It cannot be removed from its cultural and biological context.

I have flipped burgers and I know lots of people who wipe arses of men and women for a living (including one who is a prostitution survivor). Having your orifices penetrated by 10+ strange men a day for their satisfaction is not the same thing. I can't actually believe anyone says this type of shit.

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

I never bother replying to cliched arguments like the burger ones. They bore me to fucking tears, tbh

[ohnoitshimagain]

^I'd be interested in his answers to some of the questions he's been asked though - he's conveniently ignored them so far - in favour of his own pontificating.^

ok, lay the questions on the line and I'll answer them honestly.

step by step

[ohnoitshimagain]

^Would you consider selling your orifices for money the same as working at mcdonalds?^

It would be more demanding work, for sure, hence the higher pay rate.

That is how capitalism works.