OK. Please can we talk about women raping men?

[curlew]

It's a key part of the MRA agenda. Some MRA even say that men are as often victims of rape by women as women are of rape by men.

I absolutely agree that sex should always be consensual,and if a man has been forced, by either physical or psychological means into sex, then he has been raped and deserved of course to be taken seriously, and for the perpetrator to be charged and ,nif found guilty, convicted. And I know that an erection is a physiological response, and does not necessarily mean that a man actually wants to have sex.

But the MRA are full of stories of men waking up after falling asleep drunk at parties to find women on top of them. And vqriations on th them of being forced to penetrate against their will. And, it might just be my misandry showing, but really? Does this happen a lot? Is it a really serious problem that needs to be addressed, and have equivilant resources given to it?

OP, I'm really not sure that male rape IS a key part of the MRA 'agenda tbh. There's quite a few other things that are probably more prominent.

Well I just linked to the one article, so you didn't have to look through the rest of the site. It was specifically about female rapists. AVFM is probably the main MRA site, certainly the largest and most informative.

If you want answers about all things MRA, without having to ask questions, it's pretty much the place to go. It also has a wiki section. Even if you completely disagreed with all of it, you will have a better understanding of MRA issues. Plenty of feminists read AVFM.

Pan- certainly it is a live topic on MRA websites. I am raising it on here because it is the one part of their agenda that I feel I know nothing at all about, and which it's difficult to find out about. i understand the statutory rape of boys. I understand about male on male rape (a subject that MRA seem rather coy about). But rape by women as something that happens frequently to men? I don't understand about that at all....

Check out my link then curlew.

But sigmunde I read one article and it made me feel so ill I don't really want to explore further, which is why I asked if you had seen anything on there.

It seems to me that male on male sexual assault and violence would be just as hot a topic on a site that is about compassion for men and boys. But is it talked about? I don't know and am interested which is why I ask.

I do think that with a lot of relationships, especially among young people, there is plenty of coercion both ways. I also think that both males and females are well capable of poor behaviour when it comes to sex. These sort of situations are not generally reported / told to anyone though so figures on male on female vs female on male are going to be impossible to find.

These issues need to be addressed in schools, about mutual respect, active consent, mutual pleasure and so on to combat these messages. The current situation is bad for boys, girls, children who are not heterosexual and all the rest of it.

If men want to talk about their experience of sexual violence at the hands of women then of course they must do that and certainly if there are gaps in the law / problems with people coming forward then they need to work on that much as has been done with female and child victims for years.

As to whether female on male sexual violence is as prevalent as male on female or even male on male - figures are hard to find, the stats that are available and my gut say not. DV is often linked to sexual violence for example and many more women are killed by male partners than vice versa. Although I know the MRAs dispute figures like that as well.

I'd have no idea about the topics there curlew so I'll take your word for it!

As other have said there's a world of difference between rape (legally def) and really embarrasing 'sexual assaults'. As a slim, pretty, shy young thing and working as a waiter in two establishments I'd get bottom pinched and touched up generally by drunk women, ironically to whom I was serving the fuel to their loss of inhibition. Essentially tho' I never felt it would go threateningly further afterwards. And a few other scenarios when younger.

More relevant is the times when I was 'taken advantage of' by a partner fairly often when I wasn't 'up for it' at all, but just accepted what was going on to get it over with and go to sleep. I'd still though would not place that in the category of 'rape' - the power dynamics are v different.

Does 'it' re male rape by females happen frequently? I'd say bollocks, and it's merely a silly ploy to point out the simple possibility of an equation being satisfied. When we all know it never is.

'It seems to me that male on male sexual assault and violence would be just as hot a topic on a site that is about compassion for men and boys.'

I haven't looked for that topic on AVFM, as I thought that the OP was about female rapists, although female on female sexual assault is not a hot topic on feminist forums as far as I'm aware, so maybe it's not an explored topic for either.

I've no idea why you wouldn't check out my link Pan, nothing scary or bad will happen you know. It's simply information. Would you not want to check out Jezebel or Feministing?

SF - I didn't say I wouldn't check out your link at all. Though I'd accept NT's glancing of it. I know 'scary and bad' and don't need reminding of it, thanks.

female on female s.a. is vanishingly rare. There is very little demand for support services for that, otherwise feminists would address it. otoh male on male sexual assault is quite common, and many men need help to preocess that when it happens. Thankfully there is help available for men in that position who need it.

'I know 'scary and bad' and don't need reminding of it, thanks.'

You've lost me here, not sure why you're upset, but apologise for any unintended offence. Was simply referring to the fact that people on here refuse to check out links to MRA sites, I wonder why not, is all.

Sigmunde have you read the piece on there about gang rape in india?

I think that something bad or scary might happen to people reading that site - it might be triggering, upsetting, and undermine their faith in human nature.

Do you really wonder why Sigmunde?

'The Santa Fe Rape Crisis and Trauma Treatment Center is among many around the country to acknowledge that while same-sex rape comprises a small percentage of rapes overall, it does in fact exist. The SFRCC details information on both male/male rape and female/female rape.

As SFRCC explains, ?Because many people define rape at penetration by a penis, woman-to-woman rape is not acknowledged or taken seriously. But in fact, it is estimated that one out of three lesbians have been sexually assaulted by another woman.? '

Hardly 'vanishingly rare'.

'Do you really wonder why Sigmunde?'

Yes.

Oh well I think I just answered your last question.

On the other part.

My views are shaped by by own experiences, which tie into the experiences others on MN talk about (not just on FWR), and the stats also support this view.

There have been some women on here who have talked about being sexually assaulted by other women, and they were met with compassion. The number of stories dwindles into insignificance though, next to the sheer volumes of women who have had multiple situations / things happen with men.

As an aside, when I was in my 20s I used to occasionally go to a gay club which had a women only floor. I didn't have to be alert for grabby hands in there - the way I did in hetero clubs, or for that matter in bars, pubs or even on public transport - from men.

That's just how it has always been for me. And the stats seem to bear out my experience, and the stories of my friends IRL and many many on here tell the same tale.

I am surprised at the low numbers of male/male rape there.

Maybe they need to do some outreach.

SF - I'm not upset at all, sorry. I'm just choosing to not read stuff you post, as I know what will be in it, and it's dull, inaccurate and uninformative. I don't need to step in poo to confirm it's poo.

Pan - I'll leave you to your genuflecting in FWR then, just make sure you scrape your tongue every now and then so it doesn't get too icky

Yes, just overall, SF the items you post and the opinions you espouse contradict, in an almost polar nature, things that I experience and observe about how RL is lived and experienced by the vast vast majority of men and women, and have done for quite a while. So I've learned to not take up your invitations.

yeah okay.

"What a pontificating prat you are."

One of my finest features!
night SF

I think I might be uncomfortable with this discussion going down the road signposted "But what about the menz?"

I have no doubt that men who are raped by men suffer intense shame & fear, probably even greater than that suffered by women who are raped by men. I can't say I spend a lot of time studying this issue but, when I see them, I welcome shame-breaking initiatives. That particular question, however, is directly equivalent to an important feminist issue, and the answer - stop male rapists raping - is the same, albeit differently nuanced.

As a hetero woman moving in gay circles, I certainly experienced sexual harassment/assault by gay women. I've also witnessed straight women harassing/assaulting men, and have been harassed by gay men for being straight. People often are quite horrible & entitled, regardless of their gender & sexuality. All of these are matters for concern, but they don't strike me as overwhelmingly urgent in the way that rapes by men do.

MRA discussions, in general, tend to strike me as whining & desperate to kill feminism by claiming equivalence (never going to work!) But they have real, strong points to make that I think are downplayed by feminists. The 'rape' question raised by Curlew is one of them - sexual abuse, let's say, which I believe is a problem, and is fully intertwined with the male-on-female equivalents. Another is verbal, emotional, and financial abuse. I could pass days calling up examples from my everyday life. "The MRAs" aren't lying about that! It's all very well invoking perfectly valid historic & political causes for such abuse, but that doesn't excuse the billions of women abusing a man right now.

I wish men's and women's rights movements would sort things out enough to campaign together on the big issues. But they won't.