Isn't the name of Mumsnet itself sexist?

[MissPeach]

The Mumsnet slogan is 'By parents for parents', suggesting that it is of course, for mothers and fathers. Yet the name Mumsnet would suggest otherwise. It suggests that the forum is only for women, which in turn conveys the idea that women do more parenting than men.

To be honest, it doesn't irk me that much, but it was just a thought I randomly had, and was wondering other opinions on it.

[dadinthehat]

Ilikethebreeze - I just meant that my nick suggested I'm a dad, not that I had to be one thing or another to be here.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Ilovemyself - if you are genuinely curious about feminism and want to know more you could start a new thread on here. You could say something like, 'Hi, I'm new to feminism, could anybody recommend me some good reading material for beginners?' Then you could read the suggestions.

People are usually quite generous given this sort of request but understandably don't want to have to do this all the time on any thread.

You may have got friendlier responses if you had done this before starting with the 'feminists want to take over the world' and the 'gone too far' stuff.

[Ilovemyself]

Thanks for the idea of starting a new thread - I may just do that. My main gripe was the sort of comment I have just seen on a thread - a comment about men's testicles shrivelling up and falling off. That is the sort of person that doesn't help the cause - again, which I must add, I am all for

[AMumInScotland]

ilovemyself - you have to remember that when you see a comment from a woman lashing out at men, it is probably not because she believes passionately in feminism. It is far more likely that she is utterly pissed off and despairing because one (or more) individual men in her life are utter bastards and her life has become a struggle to get treated like anything other than shit. It is unlikely she is trying to "help the cause" of feminism. I haven't seen the specific thread you mention, but people are often not calm and measured about what they type when they are hurting.

[Sunnywithshowers]

^^ this

[Ilovemyself]

Amuminscotland - I understand you comment but if I were to comment "bloody women are all the same" because my wife had done something to upset me I would have been accused of sexism!

[AMumInScotland]

I'm not talking about her man having "done something to upset her". I'm talking about women who are in truly terrible relationships, where they have been undermined and belittled, where after being downtrodden for years they finally have an epiphany and decide "I don't have to be the victim in this life". If they then snap up from that in "attack mode" for a short while, I will cheer them on, even if they are saying "all men are bastards I hope their bits drop off", because I know it really means "I have seen the light and will gradually start to feel able to get a bit of perspective where I don't put up with being treated like shit".

If a woman made a comment like that about men just because one had "upset" her, then I would be just as happy to accuse her of sexism as I would a man in similar circumstances.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Women get at least low-level sexism every fucking day: "Is that Miss or Mrs?", "Who's looking after the kids?", "Aren't you lucky he does the washing up?", "Wow, he looks after the kids! You are so lucky.", Page 3, make-up, cosmetic adverts, supermarket adverts etc etc. And look at the Everydaysexism project if you really want to depress yourself.

So I think you won't get too much sympathy if you take offence at a little exasperated "FFS". FFS.

[Ilikethebreeze]

AMumInScotland. Trouble is though, eith what you have written, that there can be many women doing that, for quite a long time. Which really does not do the cause any good at all.
Yes, some people will interupt it, but most, including many men will not.
They will read and accept exactly what is written.

In a way, it is a bit like FFJ in reverse, when they mouth off.

[Ilikethebreeze]

interperet, not interupt

[UptoapointLordCopper]

It always end like this: "Women! Be very careful what you say! Don't be too rude or too pissed off! Don't swear! You are giving feminism a bad image! It will be your own fucking fault that you don't have equality!" FFS.

[AMumInScotland]

Overall, I think it's more important on a forum like Mumsnet for women in that situation to feel able to vent, than for men to feel "welcomed". If I see comments like that on threads about other things, then I tend to counter it. But if it is on somewhere like "Relationships", or a thread largely about problem relationships elsewhere, then I'd rather that women feel able to express themselves even if what they are saying is unfair. The alternative is often to tell them that they ought to go back to being polite little wives and mothers, seen and not heard, always careful to be polite to and about their men. Women in general are far too quick to put up with poor treatment, and feel guilty about asking for their own hurt and outrage to be heard. If a woman reaches a point where she is sufficiently pissed off about her situation to lash out, then she probably needs to do that, and not be told that she's putting back the cause of feminism by being less-than-perfect.

[EldritchCleavage]

Why is any woman who kicks off suddenly representative of all women or all feminists? Why isn't she just an individual in a bad place doing a bad thing?

Happens to members of minority groups all the time, and when it does we are more likely to see it for what it is: black man succeeds, he is an exception; black man commits crime-see, this is what black people are like!

There is no need constantly to allocate the behaviour of individual women onto some kind of spectrum of feminism-influence. If you don't like the behaviour, say so and say why. But constantly holding up feminism as the root causation for everything Women Do Wrong tends to out the speaker as an anti-feminist twit.

[drwitch]

To me it is a forum aimed at women who are parents. It has evolved (and been steered), unlike some other sites to deal with not just questions of how to be a "better" women or a "better" mother but with issues of identity and politcs. It is a bit like the guardian women's page, jill tweedie would have definately been a mnetter and we could have had posy simmons cartoons on the side. The problem now is that "mum" no longer describes a biological relationship and a set of resposibiliies but describes a patient, well groomed size 10 woman that takes her husbands dinner out of the oven with the same wry smile as she changes yet another nappy. We need to reclaim the word MUM, not change the name of the website

[Pigsmummy]

Have you ran put of things to find offense with OP?

[Ilovemyself]

Wow. So many people who are defensive. The point I am making is that this is supposed to be a parenting site and I come to find help with issues. Looking at the posts on here I may as well not bother, because it seems men don't matter her.

If you want support from those you think are against you ( in this case men) you need to accept them and listen to what they have got to say. This isn't about men being right or women being right. It's about everyone living equally

[AMumInScotland]

Do you accept the concept that some parenting problems are caused by relationship issues, which in turn are sometimes caused by the behaviour of some men?

The women who have those problems need support, even if they are talking in terms which are unfair to men in general.

That doesn't mean that we, in general, think that men are "against us" or that we fail to "listen to what they say".

But if you find the presence of support for women in those situations, or the presence of a Feminism section, make you feel that you are unimportant, then feel free to decide not to take part.

Living equally is something that the vast majority of posters on Mumsnet are in favour of. We'd love for it to happen. Sadly the world isn't working that way yet, and we still need to support women whose men treat them as far less than equal, and we still need to be active in the wider world to argue for it.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I'm not usually this angry. But accusing people of being defensive while refusing to see other people's points of view, or even to admit they do not understand, really riles me. All this insistence on correcting people. I've met enough people like that. My one great regret is not telling them to fuck off often enough.

[Ilovemyself]

Telling me to F off is hardly respectful is it. You are putting views in my mouth that are simply not there.

I will stand up for anyone being discriminated against. Be speak to me like I am not an equal and you are just as to blame.

And amuminscotland, I accept that some relationship problems cause parenting issues. But I don't feel I could ask a question on here about my wife because I don't feel I could get a fair hearing.

I do see others point of view- I just fail to see others listening to mine or my questions. All I get is a flaming. Some welcome that is!

[YoniTime]

Well what did you expect ilovemyself? You wrote on the feminist board that the existence of a feminist board on Mumsnet made the site feel uninviting for you as a man. And that some people here wanted to take over the world. Did you expect the women here to say, "oh gosh you're right, let's close down the feminist board?"

[AMumInScotland]

If you ask a question on here about your wife, then it depends on the question and how you raise it. If you express things carefully and thoughtfully, then there is no reason for you not to get a fair hearing.

But yes, you are coming into a predominantly female space, and would be wise to presume that people will empathise with your wife's position more than they do yours, because people do tend to empathise with those whose situation they can more easily picture themselves in.

That doesn't mean that the advice would not be useful though - hearing how others respond to your comments may help you to see the situation from a different point of view, which might help to resolve your difficulties, or at least open up an avenue of discussion which you hadn't thought of.

If you discuss your relationship problems in a mainly-male environment, then you will get more validation of your own views, but probably less help in understanding your wife's feelings. So are you more concerned about "getting a fair hearing" or in hearing an alternative?

[BeCool]

It looks to me as though MN has over 100 discussion boards.

If an individual doesn't want to use MN or post here because MN includes a Feminist section, jog on! Off you trot.

How it that anyone's loss?

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Quotes from ilovemyself:

"Feminism, like any other fight for equality is unfortunately highjacked by those who fight not for equality but want to take things too far. It also has the problem that "outraged from Tunbridge Wells" will always over react to issues or make issues where there are none."

Yes. Feminists are held to higher standards of behaviour than other people. And we are oversensitive.

"If you had read what I had written properly you wad have seen that I said that equality is fine. It is those that want to rule the world rather than being equal that are the problem. "

Ditto.

"What I mean by that is that rather than equality they want to make men feel bad about themselves or bad about coming into a female dominated area. "

Hahahaha. Welcome to our world.

"I would never try and stop any form of comment, and encourage debate. "

How bloody magnanimous of you.

"Jeez, it is easy for people to get upset!"

Well. Whinge whinge whinge.

"I do feel like I have to tread on egg shells around some women, especially when I have had the attitude thrown at me that I should have to pay penance because of what has happened in the past. Is it my fault. No it is not."

Of course it's not your fault, darling. We should be extra nice to you, and never be upset about anything until we can ascertain individual responsibility.

"Wow. So many people who are defensive. "

Well.

"If you want support from those you think are against you ( in this case men) you need to accept them and listen to what they have got to say. This isn't about men being right or women being right. It's about everyone living equally"

Blimey. Is it about everyone living equally? I never fucking knew that. And I bet those suffragettes were pretty nice and accepted whatever they were told and listened to what their lords and masters had to say. Wow. We have so much to learn.

"Telling me to F off is hardly respectful is it. "

No. Is telling someone to fuck off ever respectful? Stop being so bloody condescending.

[Ilovemyself]

I am not being condescending. And at least I am not being offensive.

I have never said that the feminist board should be closed down - a few commenting on my posts have said I have but I certainly have not.

And it's funny how when you try to explain that you encourage debate you are accused of being magnanimous like you are bowing to everyone here. All I am saying is I am not fighting against you.

Yes I am sorry you feel hard done by, and in some cases you are.

But by saying its about being equal I am not teaching you to suck eggs. I am saying why should I not be treated as equal as anyone else, especially as I share the same views as many on here