Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal


"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

[DadDancer]

yeah i did respond , did you not see the figures?

If you find it offensive when people despise you - don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women. It is simple.

oh wow so now your accusing me of abusing young women. Again more insults without any foundation. And ask yourself why you have descended to using insults? Is It because you can't put any valid points together to counter my arguments?

and if being a w*ker involves speaking out for peoples freedom of choice and sexual diversity, standing up against authoritarian lefties trying to impose their moral views and dictate how people live their lives, then fine call me a w*ker.

[Frans1980]

I haven't been to a stripclub and I never intend to go to one. But saying that I'm not going to campaign to ban them all. If others want to go then that's up to them not me.

[Frans1980]

don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women.

This post is insulting and accusing. If you know of any customers that abuse strippers in strip clubs I assume you are able to provide evidence?

[Frans1980]

Or is your definition of "abuse" so wide it includes a man looking at a woman?

[Sausageeggbacon]

It is interesting watching the feMEnists here not willing to accept a view that is anything other than dancers are abused victims, that is denying dancers agency and therefore Objectifying them more than any man could... right on sisters.

I have met and become a friend of a dancer in her late 20's, she has a degree in Criminal Justice but has found that dancing allows her to explore her creative side and she now owns 3 Properties she lets. She still has a mortgage on one of them but expects to pay it off in another year or so. She seems able, intelligent and happy.

A year ago I would have been sitting here ranting at Dad, meeting a neighbour who was home during the day has changed my view. Perhaps rather than judging dancers we should be talking to them.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I saw it, DD. Not an answer. And no apology for your mistake, either, I notice. It's not 'fine' to misrepresent what happens with strippers.

I'm saying that someone who goes to strip clubs to abuse young women is, IME, despicable.

I'm terribly sorry if you find that insulting.

But it is my opinion.

sausage - bollocks. Of course you'll be able to find the odd happy hooker to beef up the stereotype. I have already said (but did you bother to read it?) that this is part of the problem: the few like your mate, who are very privileged already, are used to make others who have no choices are are not happy feel as if they should be. Well done, really nice.

Why you assume no-one except you talks to women in this industry, I don't know. I do. I've spoken both with students who've got into it, and with women who're ground down by it years on. It is not a good picture.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

We're not feMEnists, by the way. FeMNists, if you like.

HTH.

[PosieParker]

Sausage, i assume you are another idiot reader of that dreadfully written blog, the name of which I have forgotten.

But just because you know one dancer, who can't be a great lawyer if she tops up with sex work, it doesn't make it a valuable choice for all does it. I have no doubt that you will find deluded happy lap dancers in many clubs up and down the country, but they do play their part in the objectification of women. It is no coincidence that sex crime increases in the areas where clubs spring up and that we've seen, along with the rise of lap dancing clubs, a huge rise in the market for online porn, lads mags and sexist advertising not to mention STis.

It is not a coincidence that in these, as apologists, empowering times for women that the pay gap and glass ceiling still exist. I'm sure you're not stupid enough to think these things have nothing to do with each other.

[Frans1980]

It is no coincidence that sex crime increases in the areas where clubs spring up and that we've seen

Again I ask where is the evidence for that? The Lilith report has been exposed as utter tripe (see my links above)

[PosieParker]

onetwo

Actually fuck it, what's the point? You obviously are not going to be convinced even though it's fucking obvious that if you spend the evening reducing women to tits and arse you are going to think differently of women on the whole.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Well Drummond admitted he made up the claims in Newquay he had no figures Posie. As to Object claims I don't see any figures and where the research came from.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Try this about Drummond here

[SomersetONeil]

Sausageeggbacon - I think the fairly accepted view, when talking to actual sex workers, is that the only true opinion is that of people who have left the industry. Not those still in it. Who have a vested interest in portraying it in a more favourable light. This is a pretty widely known and accepted view.

I mean, come on - you're an intelligent person. You don't need me to tell you that for every happy hooker out there, there are a depressingly outnumbered swathe who are not happy and not making choices and not consenting, who don't have 'criminal justice' degrees in their back pockets, paying off mortgages left, right and centre. Yes, if Disney did strip clubs, this would be their version. But it's not the real world version, right?

DadDancer - wow, that hurt, didn't it? Isn't nice to hear that people might despise you.

Ask yourself this. Why beautiful young women who are way out of your league don't flock around you when you're in the supermarket doing your shopping, or queuing at an ATM to get cash out. I mean, do they? They don't, right? But you're that much of an oaf that you think the ones who do in a strip club actual like you and want to be within a bargepole's length of you. I'm cringing for you, I honestly am.

[rosabud]

Noone has answered my point that just because it is better paid than stacking shelves, that does not make it OK - it makes it worse. People who convince old people to part with lots of money in order to do relatively samll building repair jobs are not actually breaking the law and are certainly earning more than people who stack shelves. so is this activity OK? Surely it's the choice of the person offering the service and the pensioner who wants to go ahead with the work to decide for themselves if this is OK. I mean it might have a knock on effect of lots of people deciding it's OK to see all old people as vulnerable and fair game to be persuaded to part with cash but what can you do about that, it's their choice.

[DadDancer]

Frans1980 and Sausageeggbacon thanks for your support. i only visit lap dancing clubs on the odd occasions, like a works night out or birthday parties. I was quite skeptical about them until i went on a mates stag do. The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away but the thing i really didn't expect was how down to earth everyone was who worked there.

The comments from PosieParker and Feminist Dragon are unreasonable and aggressive. There is certainly no need for them to be rude and abusive and they are just shooting themselves in the foot by doing so.
I appreciate that a lot of people don't like lap dancing clubs and i have no problem with them saying that but to make up false allegations of crime, calling people idiots, accusing persons of abusing young girls, etc now that i do have a problem with. It's quite ironic that they accuse me of abuse when they have both demonstrated abusive behavior first hand on this forum.

I think the 'dreadfully' written blog Posie mentioned but couldn't think of the name is the 'stripping the illusion blog' which i am a member of. There is a very nice piece on there titled 'Cognitive Dissonance in Prohibitionist Campaigning' which i think applies quite nicely to a fair few of the comments on here

[rosabud]

The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away

Did you know that Playboy magazine is full of great articles about cars?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I agree with you rosa.

DD - I'm expressing an opinion you don't like, about men who go to stripdance clubs. I am sorry it happens to be an opinion that reflects badly on you - but that's not me being 'aggressive' or 'unreasonable'. It's just my strongly-held opinion.

You come across as if you'd really just like me to be nicer about disagreeing with you ... or ideally, just to hold less strong views ... or, um, to agree with you?

No, sorry. I believe it's disgusting to take advantage of women in the sex industry, and I believe it is abusive.

There is no 'nice' way to tell you that, and it is incredibly arrogant to whine that I really should find one.

How's about you change how you act, then we can play nice?

[Sausageeggbacon]

Actually I was thinking the truth about Newquay and what Drummond claimed versus the reality here

As to Object and their claims I noticed it is all anecdotal and the only report they have is Lilith which as Fran says has been proven to be based on flawed datasets.

[PosieParker]

So it's bullshit that clubs frequently force encourage their dancers to accept/allow touching?

Bullshit that a 14 yr old was stripping?

False that many women, when coming out the other side of sex work, feel ashamed and embarrassed and would encourage others not to enter the work in the first place?

It's bullshit that most men that frequent lap dancing clubs objectify women?


Yeah, whatever. The best story I've ever heard is a works party going along to a wanker gentlemen's club (oh the irony) and one colleague goes in for a private lesbian dance, comes out tells all how amazing these girls were, how one put her nipple in his mouth, how they 'really went for it". He encouraged the boss to go in, the boss did.... one of the girls was his daughter. Now this I believed to be true, not sure why my builder would make it up. AND HE (my builder not the father) STILL GOES EVERY CHRISTMAS would you believe. This story was told to me as a funny story, not a warning.

[PosieParker]

"thanks for you support" awww were those nasty feminists really upsetting regarding watching really young women take their clothes off for money

[Sausageeggbacon]

So what about the Drummond claims Posie? He was your "fact" that wasn't as true as you would like.

As to the 14 y/o the club should be closed down no issues with that if the club didn't check her age they deserve to be closed. Which council was this? I did read a story about 5 years ago about similar in Blackpool except the girl had a forged identity including a driving license. I think the club was fined because they believed the girl was 18.

I thought all men objectified women anyway, night clubs are worse judging by what was written in this section previously. I am a little old now for men to objectify me but if we are talking about denying agency to a women then disregarding a dancer's view would be objectification.

As to the builder, its a builder what sort of stories do you expect him to come up with. Not sure it is much more than a cuationary tale of being sure you know howyour daughter earns her money.

I will thank you Posie I went off and did some digging and discovered the 2009 Leeds research which showed 87% of dancers had some form of higher education. Now it surprised me until I realised I was still wearing my judgy pants. Guess we all learn something.

[KarlosKKrinkelbeim]

"The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away"
chortle
this one is priceless - can we have him framed?

[Wallison]

Oh I don't know. He obviously doesn't go there for tits and cunts - it's their artistry he's after, same as all patrons of lap-dancing clubs.

[PosieParker]

Ah so because our most talented women are also tricked, by society as a whole, that stripping is acceptable we should now alter our perception.

It's probably a long and complicated thing, too much to explain to someone with a starting point of it's not damaging and women choose it.

Thing is I object to hijabs and Burkas too, yet again the women also make the choice to wear it. But you always have to look at everyhting behind and before that choice, you have to look at women's place as a whole. You have to look at how women are perceived. It's only when you pick this all apart and find the cause that you can even begin to treat the symptoms.

More extreme examples of women allowing harm is FGM, mothers who have been mutilated themselves still take their daughters to be tortured, we can't then argue that because they choose it it must be okay. That's never a good enough argument and such a simplistic view.