Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal


"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

[Sausageeggbacon]

Posie I noticed you didn't answer my question about Drummond when the figures release under Freedom of Information showed a down turn in rape and sexual assault since the introduction of lap dancing in Newquay.

It is also interesting to note that the revised figures for the Lilith report when analysed per 000's head of capita show a downturn in rape and Wandsworth which has no lap dancing is roughly the same size and population as Islington had an increase.

I also took time to research the most recent attempt at a nil policy in Portsmouth which had 96% of the respondents in favour of the clubs and a report on the newest club presented to the council showed a 95% drop in crime in the area since the club opened.

So 3 locations and 3 stories that don't reflect the claims made by object. Interesting in the reduction in sexual violence in areas where clubs are...

[PosieParker]

A drop in crime by 95%.....oh rubbish.

Still must be interesting being part of a debate in which you listen to absolutely nothing, I'm going to try that with people who frequent lap dancing bars from now on, it's what I do in real life.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Interesting that you are ignoring the figures, look up the presentation from Wiggle in the Portsmouth council minutes re the 95%. I am amazed that people making claims who find their information faulty wont comment on it and try to waffle. The figures in 3 areas show reductions in crime and the only commonality is the clubs. Information from the police in Newquay comes under the freedom of information act. The Islington data is based on the same data as Lilith only with proper analysis.

So I wonder how you will disprove the figures or will you just carry on ignoring them? They do show that claims about violence and rape being connected to clubs are a complete fallacy.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Posie with reference to trafficking and the women hating the work I would point you again at the study by Dr Kate Hardy and Teela Saunders from Leeds (2009 study). It shows no evidence of trafficking in the industry and that the dancers have a very high job satisfaction ratio. There are going to be people who dance who shouldn't they don't have the emotional make up to cope and I feel for them but the study shows the vast majority of dancers enjoy their work.

The dancers average wage is about £48k a year in a job that offers a lot more flexible about hours worked, time off and working around other commitments (university). Obviously the more shifts dancers do the more money they will earn. This is all available from research that takes 5 minutes on the web to find.

[GothAnneGeddes]

"don't have the emotional make up to cope"

Cope with what? I thought stripping was all highly skilled dancing in beautiful surroundings?

You mean that having to sexually perform for a bunch of baying males isn't all sparkles and bliss?

I have heard the "sex work is fine except for those who aren't suited to it" bullshit argument before. It completely glosses over the fact that what makes sex work so horrific for many women is, not some personal weakness but the behaviour of the male "customers and how they treat the women in this industry. Anyone who uses that argument is a shitehawk of the highest order.

Two points:

1. I find it utterly repellent that men have the cheek to come on here to argue the women should remain the sex class.
   

1. There should be a bingo card of "Things Men say in FWR section of MN", one of the squares would have to be "My friend is a prostitute/lapdancer/etc and loves it and she's a really strong women..."
   

Rosebud - The point you made is excellent, and I have never heard one of the defenders of the sexual exploitation of women give a satisfactory answer to it.

[Sausageeggbacon]

Last time I checked under my skirt there wasn't a penis there, not has there ever been. I just find people who make claims based on figures that don't actually stack up quite funny.

Rosa's point about the dancer's seems flawed given that most of them are high intelligent ladies. I doubt that they have been brainwashed, but the proof is in the research. Leeds did a pretty through job and most of the so called feminist statements fall apart under review. Of course some people will just ignore the research and the figures as irrelevant.

As to how men treat women in the industry well considering the majority of dancers are highly satisfied with their work I am guessing it is not as bad as some people imagine. But that would mean the dancers and researchers are no doubt shitehawks as well.

[Frans1980]

Just like to point out it is clear the statistics we have for trafficking are exaggerated and often just made up to scaremonger people into thinking the sex industry is more of a problem than it really is.

Every time statistics on trafficking figures are published, the newspaper that publishes them seems to add a few thousand on and then round the figures up to make it sound a little better.

I read another article somewhere that tells you how they collect the statistics on "trafficked women"- the researchers would phone up escort agencies and ask for the ethnicities of the ladies that worked there- and if they weren't British then they were automatically labelled "trafficked". (sort of a logic fail when you consider London and major cities are multi-cultured anyway- choose any random job and you will find people who aren't British working there).

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

I know this is about prostitution but it shows that what we tend to hear about trafficking is scaremongering and inflated or made-up statistics.

Laura Agustin (a sex worker herself) has some good articles on the topic.
www.lauraagustin.com/

[GothAnneGeddes]

If you think anyone who is anti-prostitution is only concerned about trafficking, you are wrong.

Also, not impressed with one single study when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Finally, if both of you, as women, really feel that the sex industry's push for greater social acceptance and wider consumption isn't going to harm women as a group in society, then you've got a lot more reading to do. A vast amount more.

[GothAnneGeddes]

From the article you linked Fran:

"However, the internal analysis shows that supposed
victims variously absconded from police, went home
voluntarily, declined support, were removed by the UK
Borders Agency or were prosecuted for various offences"

Note the use of "supposed" victims. And the complete lack of understanding of why a trafficked woman might seek to hide from the authorities, or have to turn to crime to support herself.

For those reasons, I am highly sceptical of the report claiming to have interviewed 100 migrant prostitutes who apparently love their work.

I also note the journalist doesn't name the "prostitute groups" who are against anti-trafficking measures. Does he mean the English Collective of Prostitutes (who are nothing of the sort), or the brothel-owner and pimp, who claims he's a prostitute (he's not).

Don't you understand, when men defend the sex industry, they are justifying women being at their service as fuck-toys. They're never going to be prostitutes are they?

Of course women don't mind being prostitutes, they're only women and not fully human, like men are. All women want is some money and male attention, right?

[GothAnneGeddes]

From the article you linked Fran:

"However, the internal analysis shows that supposed
victims variously absconded from police, went home
voluntarily, declined support, were removed by the UK
Borders Agency or were prosecuted for various offences"

Note the use of "supposed" victims. And the complete lack of understanding of why a trafficked woman might seek to hide from the authorities, or have to turn to crime to support herself.

For those reasons, I am highly sceptical of the report claiming to have interviewed 100 migrant prostitutes who apparently love their work.

I also note the journalist doesn't name the "prostitute groups" who are against anti-trafficking measures. Does he mean the English Collective of Prostitutes (who are nothing of the sort), or the brothel-owner and pimp, who claims he's a prostitute (he's not).

Don't you understand, when men defend the sex industry, they are justifying women being at their service as fuck-toys. They're never going to be prostitutes are they?

Of course women don't mind being prostitutes, they're only women and not fully human, like men are. All women want is some money and male attention, right?

[Frans1980]

Is it possible that the workers who declined support did so because they weren't victims and didn't need the support?

The English Collective of Prostitutes does in fact oppose attempts to criminalize prostitution. So do SCOT-PEP have you heard of them?

These groups are made up of prostitutes themselves. And noone knows about prostitution better than prostitutes themselves right?

prostitutescollective.net/
www.scot-pep.org.uk/

[Sausageeggbacon]

None of the prostitution debate is really relevant to lap dancing as the UK regulations are designed to stop any touching taking place. From what I have been told the club owners are terrified of losing their income so the girls are warned they will be fired if they touch a customer. Dances are supervised either by bouncers or CCTV. The term lap dancing actually no longer really has meaning as the dancers do not get near a lap.

[FastLoris]

DadDancer -

ok so i could have linked direct to the Leeds university document but that's beside the point. I simply was demonstrating that there is evidence on what lap dancers typically earn and if i got the figure wrong then fine. People are free to interpret the figures for themselves. Also if it is £232 a week then that is still based on part time hours, for between 2 to 4 days work.

Actually while the Guardian article wasn't clear, it would appear you were actually right in the first place. This article mentions the same research and makes clear that it's £230 per shift, not per week:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-human-cost-of-uks-300m-addiction-to-lapdancing-7637488.html

I don't have a particular position re what that does or doesn't mean for the acceptability of lapdancing. Just thought I'd post it to clarify the information.

[digerd]

" A lap dance is on the table and the man expressing his sexuality" ??!!

If that means what I think it does, then I am horrified that either of them could enjoy that situation - the man behind a curtain looking through a gap, I could imagine !!! And he's not there " to talk to a woman" is he ?!
.

[KatieScarlett2833]

Men who frequent such establishments are sad losers, justify it to yourselves however you like, but we know what you are.

[whitepepper]

I'm with the Icelandic model on this. Have all the lap dancing you want but you are not to charge for it. Excellent. I wonder how many women would choose to to do it to strangers for free.

[rosabud]

Rosa's point about the dancer's seems flawed given that most of them are high intelligent ladies.

I didn't mke any points about the dancers. My point was that 1) arguing that lap dancing is a good thing because it's better paid than shelf stacking is flawed (for reasons already quoted above) and 2) arguing that lap dancing is a good thing because it is the choice of the indivduals involved is a flawed argument (for reasons already quoted above).

I would like to make a third point re the argument either for or against lapdancing dependent on whether or not it causes crime to go up or down. If it causes crime to go up then, clearly, that's bad. However, if all the quoted statistics are to be believed and it actually causes crime (specifically sexual crime) to go down then we ought to think about why that could be. Am I right in thinking that the suggestion from posters on this thread is that by having lapdancing/stripping in a "safe" regulated club, men who would otherwise be tempted to go and find a woman to commit a sexual crime against are therefore satisfied in a "safe" way thereby keeping the rest of society "safe" from these men's "natural" sexual urges? Do I really need to point out all that is wrong with such a suggestion and how it perfectly proves the point that lapdancing/ stripping is maintaining the idea that men have the right to be sexually satisfied by women and to consider women as there to serve their needs?

Of course, I could be completely wrong and the lowering of the crime rate could be to do with the fact that men are inspired by a couple of hours of sitting in the "stylish decor" of the clubs. That would have interesting ramefications for whichever government department is responsible for the interior decor of Her Majesty's prisons. Someone should write to them.

[Sausageeggbacon]

I don't know about you but £232 a shift seems better than shelves or bar work by a very long way. So in one night they earn a weeks money compared to the shelf stackers. The dancers enjoy their work (Leeds research shows this) so your reasoning is based purely on your personal beliefs.

Rosa, I am sure Leeds and Kent University are likely to research the causal effects. The fact is the figures are there. The fact that crime has gone down is exactly that, a fact. Rhetoric is not going to change the world and as the last consultation about clubs was done in Portsmouth and had 96% of people for the clubs you are going to be arguing for a long time.

[rosabud]

I have not disputed the fact at all about the crime going down. My point is that this fact is actually further evidence that lapdancing clubs are not a good thing for the reasons I have already said above.

Sausages, why do you think lapdancing clubs cause crime to go down? Is it because they are providing an outlet for men's sexual needs (in which case we have to accept that lapdancing clubs are most definitely about the objectifying of women and maintaining the idea that men have a need and a right to be sexually satisfied by women)? Or do you think that lapdancing clubs cause crime to go down because of the stylish decor and skillful dancing (quoted as an important reason for men to visit such places by some posters here)?

Incidentally, if you do happen to think that crime has gone down because of the skillful dancing and stylish decor then it would be interesting to do some more research and find out if crime has also gone down around Covent Garden where the Royal Ballet dance skillfully in the stylish decor of the Royal Opera House.

[PosieParker]

I am always so very saddened by those who seemingly need to justify young women taking off their clothes for the pleasure and profit of men.

I really don't think I can be arsed to debate it any further, the people justifying it here are not the sort, in real life, I'd give the time of day.

[Sausageeggbacon]

We have here two sides that will never agree, one side that wants to make decisions for all women based on their beliefs and from my side there are those of us that believe that an adult woman can make her own mind up and make her own choices. I have to respect the fact you have opinions even though they do not agree with my own as I am of the opinion every women has the right to choose.

If there was any proof that violence comes from these clubs I would be wanting them closed as well, but having spoken to a dancer and looked at all the figures I do not feel that what information is available gives me (or anyone else) the right to choose for those women who want to dance. Be it the better lifestyle, choice of hours or money that attracts them I have to believe that as an adult the dancers should be able to make their decisions. They are not objects for me to control.

So comes down to the fact that do you believe that you have the right because of your point of view to control other women's lives. Not something I would ever want to do.

Now I have to go split up DS1 and DS2 who are shouting over the football.

[PosieParker]

Nope. We have one side that understands a society in which women are objectified and complicit in their own objectification have a far reaching impact on the gender as a whole and another who doesn't mind exploitation, objectification and willfull corrosion of equality.

[PosieParker]

My apologies for an attempt at English...

Nope. We have one side that understands a society in which women are permitted to be objectified and complicit in their own objectification has a far reaching impact on the gender as a whole and thus creates an unequal and unfair place and another who doesn't mind exploitation, objectification and willfull corrosion of equality.

[PosieParker]

And can you be serious about 'one dancer' for a valid argument? Really?

[PosieParker]

One more thing.

Even if a woman has a right to choose does a man have the right to pay for her and watch?