Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

Avaaboosmummy, I think the 'have it all' is misleading as I don't think either men or women van have it all.

What equality asks for is for the same opportunities available to men and women- for women to be viewed as equals.

Women today have opportunities that our grandmothers could have only dreamed of- it's still not perfect, but it has been gained by legislation. Equal pay, equal opportunities, anti-discrimination etc - all have made society more equal. So I don't agree with your analysis that you cannot legislate for a more equal society.

^"Let's talk about your son interestedpunter. So, he's down on his luck and without a job and a home. You've divorced his mother, and everythings gone a bit pear-shaped for him. Poor lad feels estranged from his loved ones for whatever reason.

An older, richer, more powerful man approaches him- and offers him a moderate/large sum of money to be anally penetrated. Do you think your son would be on an equal footing to the punter? Is it a fair and equal transaction?"^

Honestly; its equal to any other commercial transaction that he might enter into to provide services of any type at that time. Are you suggesting it isn't? Why? My guess is that if my son is not gay (or even if he is and is not comfortable with anal penetration) he will not accept it. Many homeless people who are down on their luck don't. If on the other hand he was comfortable being anally penetrated, he might agree to it. Alternatively, he might be comfortable with wanking the guy off - I really don't know. Ultimately, so long as he is comfortable with it, it is up to him if he goes ahead. Don't want to go ahead - turn down the transaction. Even if you decide to go ahead with it and have second thoughts you can tell the guy "no", preferably give the guy his money back and you still don't have to go ahead with it. If you are not comfortable getting anally penetrated or doing whatever and go through with it then you are a fool who needs help but its not the fault of the guy who paid you.

My argument is in a sense the converse of ava's - mine is that women are not in a sense inferior but superior. We have two ways to earn a fortune through the type of work I do per hour and through selling our bodies through prostitution or benefiting in marriage/on divorce from male earnings. This is great. It means we have more aces up our sleeve than many men and more women under 40 in the UK are now millionaires than men are.

Plenty of us also these days avoid sexist men and effect equal marriages where men do as much as we do at home whilst we both work full time. We are very lucky to live today and in the West.

It is quite rare for women to be superior to men.
Because men wont allow it and run like yours did.

Avasboos that is the second time you have ignored my question.

"not all men use prostitutes or have affairs or think of their partners as unequal."

No, but all men can and that puts their partners at a disadvantage. To give an example my XP used to threaten to go to a prostitute if I didn't "give" him sex as often as he wanted it. If only he'd known how NOT to treat me he would have had sex a lot more than he needed! Still he's now my XP, hard to imagine why!

On a subtler level women know it's there, that men are expected to cheat, that no one expects them to go without sex, and prostitution is one of many factors in our society that perpetuate that belief. If men really are so soulless then that's quite depressing.

Messy, only some men are that soulless. It's just there's a concentration of them on this thread because of the punternetters linking to it

namechanging semi-regular.

I have been following this thread but not posted so far. As an ex-escort my experience is very similar to avaboos. Before frida has to ask, the answer is no I have never been raped, subject to any form of abuse either physical or mental either as a child or as an adult. Other than very occasional use of recreational drugs, once or twice a year max, I don't use drugs. I just like sex, a lot. From hundreds of bookings there were only one that I can remember being unenjoyable and I had the option to leave. The problem was the man had severe hygiene issues and no way was I going there. The only reason I stopped was because my partner and I wanted to make babies. My partner knew I was an escort and supported me in my choice. We are both swingers so I thought we might as well make money from our hobby and we did. I became an escort in my early thirties. If I did not have children I would still be doing the job. I made a lot of money and met some very nice people. Escort work was a sideline, I earn enough in my day to day life to live comfortably so I wasn't doing it because I needed money, I was doing it because it turned me on and I enjoyed it.

To spoil some women's views of punters as only in it for the sex, the vast majority of punters were very keen on ensuring that I was enjoying myself too and in taking time to pleasure me. Men do not want to have sex with an automaton. Men want the woman to enjoy herself too.

Many posters have pointed out that there is a difference between those women who are forced into prostitution which is already illegal and those who choose to become prostitutes because they want to. Saying that those escorts who do it because they want to is encouraging the illegal end of the market is like saying that buying clothes made by people treated well is encouraging human rights abuses in those manufacturers who abuse their workers.

Interestedpunter- so you're ok with older, richer men using their money to coerce young people desperate for money into doing sex acts? You think that's just a business transaction?

You said earlier that all the prostitutes you saw were empowered and equal, and not subject to any coercion. Now suddenly a rich man propositioning someone down on their luck is 'like any other business transaction'. I don't think so.

trigger warning
*

The following are all written by a woman who choose to be a prostitute. A woman who is the sort of escort who offers 'girl friend experience'. The sort of woman the johns on this thread pay to fuck (whilst congratulating themselves that they don't use pimped women with substance abuse issues - although of course, they have no way of knowing for sure).

secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/getting-paid-to-say-yes/

I didn?t get paid to say no, I don?t like that, a bit more gentle, a bit less rough, please stop biting me, please stop finger fucking me, please stop pulling my hair, please stop smacking me, please stop.

I got paid to say oh fuck yes I love that, please fuck me harder, I love it when you pull my hair, oh yes please fuck me in the ass, harder, please, oh my god I?m coming, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

You know how they say you can?t stop a speeding train? That?s how it was most of the time, with punters/Johns. They were not going to stop ? and would not if I asked. Most of the time my mouth was covered ? by their mouth, or their body in one form or another, so I couldn?t speak. What remains? Physical pushes or movements to express my unwillingness. But these mostly backfired. Usually if someone was pushing my head and mouth down on his scummy dick, and I tried to pull away to stop him, his response would be to push my head down harder.

It?s not a game of mother may I or red light green light. Most of it is just physical overpowering. He?s paid and he thinks he has the right to whatever he wants. So to the (white) male and female pimps I worked for, and so would the cops if I tried to report any violence. Once I actually did go to the cops about a man who?d nearly killed me, who I was sure would murder someone. The cops threatened to arrest me and accused me of stealing from this man. I am still dealing with complications from the injuries he gave me.

The harder you fight back physically, the more forcefully a punter/John will usually counter with his greater strength, bigger body and heavier weight. That?s just how it is. He?s not thinking, he?s reacting. He?s a speeding train.

So ? given that situation ? a push is met with a harder push, etc. ? can you see how easily an attempt to get a punter/John off or away from you body can get you beat up?

The paying is a gateway ? and ultimately it?s all about conquest and domination of the prostitute?s body. Acting like a living sex doll is the best way to prevent being seriously hurt.

secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/the-problem-with-punters/

Punters either knowingly or unknowingly hurt me, and hurt themselves. They had a big (huge) hand to play in what I am going through now, and I firmly believe that most punters are not happy people, or don?t know what real happiness to compare. I think that that the easy availability of sex and the normalising effect that escort websites have, distorts the truth, massively, for many, many people involved, and I was one of those people.

secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/how-it-feels-to-get-reviewed/

They know it?s an illusion that they are paying for, so when the illusion is even minutely broken (for example if the escort makes the grave error of glancing at her clock) they storm home afterwards with self righteous indignation, to unleash their ?disappointment? in a review: What a clockwatcher, rushed ending, won?t be going back, when in fact he went 20 minutes over time and all she did was remind him of this. The fact that they are the buyer, gives them the power to judge what they get. Regardless of it being a human being.

secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/a-thankyou-letter-to-punters/

So modern society should be influenced by moral metaphors written well over a thousand years ago?
Anyway I am quite sure the general message in the bible is that prostitution is not a good thing, so I do not quite understand how you reconcile your beliefs with your current job, avaboos?
You also still have not answered my earlier question about whether you underwent (physical/emotional/sexual)abuse as a child and/or adolescence?

I don't think that alone, however I don't think anyone else as yet has answered the fundamental questions of the meaning of life so to dismiss it removes a whole world of possibility and understanding.
I don't have to reconcile my beliefs, as I do know the man upstairs probably isn't happy with me right now, so as far as I am concerned he is the only one that can truely judge. I hope to redeem myself in the future.
I didn't go through any specific abuse, my life hasn't always been the easiest, but that can probably be said for a lot of people.

Sorry, Sabrina, I must have missed it; but where was the coercion in the scenario you described to me?

Ok replace coercion with persuasion. In that a person desperate for money is more likely to be persuaded to do something they don't want to do. Point still stands.

"We are both swingers so I thought we might as well make money from our hobby and we did."

becauseeyesaidso, I hope you don't mind me asking, but were both you and your partner escorts then?

But I said that my son should be comfortable with whatever he wanted to do - I, therefore, don't see how he could not "want to do it" as you describe. Again you are trying to twist what I said because of your cognitive dissonance.

The second story on beachcombers post should strike a chord with interestedpunter.

I suspect that interestedpunter's DD would be horrified if she knew that if she wanted to go into prostitution he could give her business and safety advice- I can just imagine the eye rolling! (or maybe she is still too young)

The whole point would be he doesn't 'want to do it' interestedpunter. He's just desperate for money.

Then he shouldn't do it

I thought all prostitutes were doing it for the money.

From the link mentioned by SabrinaMulhollandJones.

The nicer punters hurt me but they didn?t know it. Remember what I said about being a great actress and a master manipulator? I wanted them to believe that I was happy. I was adamant that this was what I wanted to be doing. As long as no one ever questioned me on that, I was fine, I was emotionally surviving. I know it seems really idealistic but I wish a punter had asked me why I was doing it, or what led me there, and I would have had an emotional breakdown and all this might already be behind me, but thinking like that is just immature. Punters aren?t stupid. Some can see past the strongest facades. They just choose not to acknowledge it as then, I?m guessing, they?d have to look inwards as well.

This thing of mine is being discussed on four different escorting websites at the moment, in Ireland, the US and `Canada. In all of them the same result; Punters read the blog, either get very very angry or are a bit shocked. In all cases a few escorts have replied saying things like ?Oh poor her, but I?m fine and happy and love my clients? etc etc. I understand; they need to protect their business, they can?t have guys feeling guilty about what they?re doing. Instantly the punters are feeling happy again. A few years ago I would have been saying that kind of thing too.

Interestedpunter the girls you pay for sex don't want to do it either.

Perhaps they shouldn't do it either? Or perhaps you shouldn't.

Where did I say the b) point you refer to (people are making things up again)

Apologies Interested - it was RealityChecker not you. This thread is getting too long for comfort....

So I can take it then that you would be quite happy to be a male prostitute, unlike RealtyChecker. Otherwise my point still stands that I find it difficult to find a word that expresses my reaction to the fact that you find it acceptable to do to someone for money i.e. penetration by a stranger - what you would not be willing for someone to do to you?

Thsi thread really proves that there are a huge number of women and men out there who are not anti prostitution and think that men should be allowed to pay if they choose to. The fact some people may not like that is beside the point.

I thought all prostitutes were doing it for the money

But they should still be comfortable with what they do. They might want to do it because of the money but you're the fool if you do something you hate just for money whether that's prostitution or anything else. Now if you were a starving kid in a country where you did not have benefits or a welfare system; you would have some leeway in your argument that girls/ boys had no option but to do what they were doing. In the UK just because things have gone a bit "pear shaped" for a an adult - I just can't see it.